Why Shouldn't Martial Characters have powers?

[PeterWeller]

Yup yup yup. Batman's powers are all his "wonderful toys". Without them, he's a competent martial artist, a good socializer, and rich. But otherwise mundane.

Taking away Batman's utility belt is like taking away a Wizard's spell component pouch, or dropping Superman in a kryptonite mine.

Batman's powers have a techie flavor, but they're no less super in terms of functional power than Spiderman's powers (which are half and half).

Cheers, -- N

Ehh, Batman is a lot more than a competent martial artist, good socializer and rich. He's amongst the world's best martial artists, and most of the other members of that rarefied group learned their skills from him. He's also the world's greatest detective, Sherlock Holmes on overdrive. Then there's the genius super scientist angle. Really, even without all of his gadgets, Batman is pretty superhuman because he's the peak human in so many areas.

 

[Cadfan]

Did I miss something, or is there even a shred of evidence to suggest that 4e fighters will have mystic powers available to them at all, much less as default?

 

[Nifft]

*edit* Just noticed that my post is right after Nifft's. Opus is THE iconic penquin!

Okay. But Tux is the iconic penguin.

Cheers, -- N

 

[FireLance]

Did I miss something, or is there even a shred of evidence to suggest that 4e fighters will have mystic powers available to them at all, much less as default?

I believe it was mentioned that all classes would have at will, per encounter and per day abilities. Extrapolating from the maneuvers in the Book of Nine Swords (which was cited as one of books that the concepts of 4e gameplay were tested in), this could include a number of apparently supernatural or mystical abilities. So, it is certainly possible that 4e fighters wil have mystic powers, but so far, there has been no real evidence (in my view) that they will be the only powers available, or even the default powers.

 

[Nifft]

@ Cadfan: I suspect it's the fact that ToB is being discussed as a preview. Martial adepts can throw around mystical stuff (though they don't have to do so).

Ehh, Batman is a lot more than a competent martial artist, good socializer and rich. He's amongst the world's best martial artists, and most of the other members of that rarefied group learned their skills from him. He's also the world's greatest detective, Sherlock Holmes on overdrive. Then there's the genius super scientist angle. Really, even without all of his gadgets, Batman is pretty superhuman because he's the peak human in so many areas.

Batman's super-sleuth skills are as a game mechanic no different from Superman's X-Ray Vision, though. Both are "gimmie a special clue" powers. An an analogy, compare a Paladin's detect evil to a Rogue's Sense Motive + Spot.

Genius super scientist is just Batman's backstory for some of the wonderful toys. Compare to Superman's "power source" (being an extra-terrestrial). How often does it matter, in a strictly mechanical sense?

Flying vs. utility belt grapple hook + electro-motor. They mainly differ in that the latter can't be used in certain environments. Thus, you won't find Batman fighting in outer space or out in the open desert (where you can find Superman fighting).

Batman's armor vs. Superman's bullet-proof skin... again, only matters if you take away Batman's toys / throw Superman in a kryptonite mine. Both happen about equally often.

In other words, the difference between Batman and Superman is mainly flavor. There's some power-level stuff too, like Superman would probably need to be higher level than Batman, but there's not a huge gap in their functional power array. The stuff they can do isn't all that different, even if the flavor (how the do it) is quite distinct.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Archmage]

I believe it was mentioned that all classes would have at will, per encounter and per day abilities. Extrapolating from the maneuvers in the Book of Nine Swords (which was cited as one of books that the concepts of 4e gameplay were tested in), this could include a number of apparently supernatural or mystical abilities. So, it is certainly possible that 4e fighters wil have mystic powers, but so far, there has been no real evidence (in my view) that they will be the only powers available, or even the default powers.

And it's a popular misconception that Book of 9 Swords is all about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon fighting in the bamboo stuff. I had the same misconception until I actually read the book. The Desert Wind and Shadow Hand disciplines are very mystical (in fact, most of those maneuvers are explicitly supernatural). Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and Diamond Mind, not so much.

Okay. But Tux is the iconic penguin.

Cheers, -- N

Hmmm, is that a weird typo or what? How the heck did I transpose a q and a g? Guess I suck at penguin proselytizing.

 

[Henry]

I really dislike the "if everyone is special, then no one is" argument as it pertains to this discussion.

In this case, it is arguing that fighters being special would somehow make wizards less special, which is a "bad thing". As such, it is arguing that fighters should not be special, so that wizards can still be special.

In other words, it is saying that fighters should only exist to make the wizards look better.

I don't know if that's the argument, or if it's that fighters posessing innate magic would make MAGIC less special, not wizards. The way old D&D was, everyone had a niche -- the wizards were "magic guy (or gal)". Fighters were the ones who could stand toe to toe with an enemy and not go down in one or two hits. Clerics were a bit of both -- Thieves could do things that even magic couldn't do, originally, such as find traps, pick pockets, etc. Later, in AD&D, mages stepped on other people's toes, but they could only do it a few times a day. Still later, mages can step on other people's toes, and thanks to metamagics and easier to craft magic items, they, and especially clerics, can step on other people's toes ALL DAY LONG, practically. So it's natural to want something more "flashy" for each class, so that one or two classes don't hog all the fun (especially at high levels).

The only thing is, the dependency that classes had on one another, and the stereotypes, has diminished along the way. In a way, the new systems in 4E is one way to get classes to depend on one another again. A fighter will need the "strikers" and "leaders", just as they'll need the fighter once again to keep them out of harm's way.

The problem is that all of us fantasy buffs of Conan, Fafhrd and the Mouser, Arthur and Merlin, Caramon and Raistlin, etc. can't shake that image of the sort of ordinary world, graced with just a touch of the fantastic, even if our own home games don't always play out that way, and the non-supernatural fighter was one way, perhaps the last way, to keep in touch with that older fantasy image.

Me, as long as I can still make fighters that have unstoppable ripostes, undefeatable tumbles, and irresistible swings, instead of fire trails, mirror images, and fiery exploding swings, then I'll be happy. I'm happy with an ability that allows STR damage even on a miss, or a devastating penetrating spear attack, or extra attacks with flails - those are still rooted in skill, even if it's skill that is stretching the bounds of plausiblity a little.

 

[Warbringer]

I think it was Noonan that said all classes would have 'powers'; for many that means magical (in a fantasy setting) or mystic (in a superhero setting).

Personally, I dont see it going that way.

I think that the martial powers will have more in common with IH manueuvers than B9S maneuvers and the cross-over is that they will be more like the former, but using the per encounter/will structure of the latter.

Powers won't be mystical, woont be avoidable by spell resistance, will become flashy comabt moves, ala 300, that leave the mundane in awe.

Now, powers for rogues, i'm at a loss at hw this will work without crossing into the mystical, ala Shadow Hand from B9S

 

[PeterWeller]

In other words, the difference between Batman and Superman is mainly flavor. There's some power-level stuff too, like Superman would probably need to be higher level than Batman, but there's not a huge gap in their functional power array. The stuff they can do isn't all that different, even if the flavor (how the do it) is quite distinct.

Cheers, -- N

That I agree with, I was just saying Bats is a lot more capable than just a dude with gadgets. He is a pretty decent analogy for a 3E Figher, a total BA, who is toting gear that puts him on par with other BAs possessing inherent power sources.

 

[AllisterH]

Ehh, Batman is a lot more than a competent martial artist, good socializer and rich. He's amongst the world's best martial artists, and most of the other members of that rarefied group learned their skills from him. .

Er, comic book geek moment.

That's not true as Batman doesn't even rank in the top 5 and the only ones he has personally taught were the Robins and none of them ever get ranked in the top 10.