Why Shouldn't Martial Characters have powers?

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Er, comic book geek moment.

That's not true as Batman doesn't even rank in the top 5 and the only ones he has personally taught were the Robins and none of them ever get ranked in the top 10.

Counter-Comic Book Geek Moment.

Last I checked, this last year, Batman was listed in top 5 with Batgirl -1 ranking above him. I think Nightwing ranks as well.

He beats Lady Shiva fairly regularly, but my understanding is that any fighter in the top 10 can beat any other fighter. The hierarchy just tells you who would have odds in a tournament.

I don't know, however, if Dragon and Karate Kid were listed.

And, of course, Batman cheats.

 

[FireLance]

Uh, you seem to have forgotten the base damage of the attack. Assuming you can do at least 40 hp, yes, Virginia, you can cleave the adamantine wall in one stroke.

Hence the use of the phrase "in itself". Power Attack, in particular, could help get you through it in one attack. Of course, if it was really vital to the adventure that a high-level character using a high-level ability could not get through a wall in a single attack, the obvious solution is to increase the thickness of the adamantine wall to six inches instead. (Cue Internet spam joke reference, e.g. "Fighters bursting through your adamantine walls make you feel small?")

Is a barbarian chewing through with Power Attack also silly? Of course. It's slightly less silly, in that it at least looks like he has to work hard. But it's still silly. That doesn't really alter the argument much.

He makes it look simple, but what you don't see is all the hard work he's put into getting to the point where he can pull it off. It's as hard as casting meteor swarm or mass heal, really.

 

[pawsplay]

He makes it look simple, but what you don't see is all the hard work he's put into getting to the point where he can pull it off. It's as hard as casting meteor swarm or mass heal, really.

Well, sure. But you have to consider what the barbarians at the office will think about you come Monday.

 

[Mercule]

Isn't that just another way of saying "I don't want to play high level fighters"?

Not at all. It means I don't want my high level fighters to have to be vulgar. I will absolutely agree that there is a point at which there is nothing left but blatant mysticism. Wrestling an ogre and breaking his neck barehanded is one thing, doing that to a dragon is another, and holding up the Earth is something else. Each of those pushes the "man behind the curtain" factor a bit. I happen to find a lot of the wuxia tropes to be closer to the last that the first, YMMV.

Several posters have already pointed up that the heroes of Western mythology are far from mundane. They did things like wrestle rivers and shoot 1,000,000+ arrows in the course of a single battle, so in that regard, these tales are irrevocable told in terms of magic, or at least that's how they're received in audiences full of rational-type people.

True. I've also said I'm fine with wuxia-like bits at the extremely high (25-30) levels, or even occasionally below that. I most certainly don't want to see them being the assumed norm prior to 21st level and vanishingly rare below 10th.

Are you calling Superman "wuxia", or is this a tangent?

Tangent. I don't mind him being an alien, but he deals with too many extraterrestrials for my tastes (granted, it's a common problem in lots of comics). Different objection, but similarly flavor-related.

Regarding "channeling energy" vs. "years of practice / seeing flaws" -- if there's no functional difference in the mechanics, why can't you just add whichever flavor you like? As long as we're going off on the east vs. west tangent, let's be practical: the dude practicing with a sword in the east may say he's "channeling ki", while the dude in the west says he's just had a lot of practice, but under the hood they are probably doing the same thing -- and what specifically that thing is, is up to you and your DM's campaign setting.

Seriously, what's the difference between "skill guides me" vs. "ki guides me" vs. "Crom guides me"? If it can't be dispelled, it's as good as mundane.

As long as the books don't add the "ki guides me" explanation through names, flavor text, or some other means, that's great. Sometimes a game book has to add flavor or come off reading like a dictionary. IMO, the default D&D flavor should lean toward the "skill guides me" or "Crom guides me". Either that, or make it completely clear that the mechanic does not reflect the flavor by giving counter/multiple examples.

 

[Nifft]

As long as the books don't add the "ki guides me" explanation through names, flavor text, or some other means, that's great. Sometimes a game book has to add flavor or come off reading like a dictionary. IMO, the default D&D flavor should lean toward the "skill guides me" or "Crom guides me". Either that, or make it completely clear that the mechanic does not reflect the flavor by giving counter/multiple examples.

Oh, I get it. You're a Crom Fundamentalist.

Seriously, you can rename stuff much easier than you can re-design it. It seems ... stingy, if you will, to wish that a character you don't want to play should be unsupported for everyone else.

If the same mechanic can support "In Pelor's glorious name!" and "BY CROM'S WRATH!" and "Old John's Hammer!" and "Tiger Claw Attack!", why not let them?

-- N

 

[Ahglock]

As a longtime poster on Comicbook resources and lurker on newsrama, I speak for many when I say,

"BATGOD"

There is no way that Batman should even have a chance in hell against karate kid. A guy who could stalemate PRE-CRISIS Daxamites/Kryptonians a.k.a "We can push planets and blow out suns!!!".

It's already been SMvsFL'd already....

Supergirl schooled Kate Kid a few months back. He couldn't even land a punch.

One of the many example how the last year or two in comics should be called, "When Bad Writing Attacks."

 

[Ahglock]

Counter-Comic Book Geek Moment.

Last I checked, this last year, Batman was listed in top 5 with Batgirl -1 ranking above him. I think Nightwing ranks as well.

He beats Lady Shiva fairly regularly, but my understanding is that any fighter in the top 10 can beat any other fighter. The hierarchy just tells you who would have odds in a tournament.

I don't know, however, if Dragon and Karate Kid were listed.

And, of course, Batman cheats.

Shiva had always ranked higher than Batman. After the last Crisis they are in the I can write any crap I want mode, because we can say its a new universe and new continuity.

 

[shilsen]

Oh, I get it. You're a Crom Fundamentalist.

Seriously, you can rename stuff much easier than you can re-design it. It seems ... stingy, if you will, to wish that a character you don't want to play should be unsupported for everyone else.

If the same mechanic can support "In Pelor's glorious name!" and "BY CROM'S WRATH!" and "Old John's Hammer!" and "Tiger Claw Attack!", why not let them?

-- N

What the penguin said. That's precisely the approach I take and why I loved the Book of Nine Swords approach. I could take exactly the same mechanics and use it with a change in flavor to make two drastically different melee characters.

For example, I've used the Shadow Garrote maneuver (5d6 damage as ranged touch attack; Fort save or flatfooted) to represent a warrior with supernatural abilities drawn from shadow magic, and to represent a rogue who grabbed a dagger off a table and hurled it at a chink in someone's armor. Shadow Jaunt (teleport 50 ft to a spot you have line of sight/effect to) can be a mystic disappearing in a cloud of shadow and appearing elsewhere, and it can be a swashbuckler leaping up, grabbing the chandelier and swinging across the chamber to land on the other side.

Just because a book has a certain flavor already present doesn't mean I have to slavishly follow it.

 

[Wormwood]

Just because a book has a certain flavor already present doesn't mean I have to slavishly follow it.

The confidence to divorce fluff from mechanics is one that generally comes with experience as a DM, as novice DMs tend to cleave very closely to the Book As Written.

4e is a wonderful opportunity for the designers to provide DMs with the tools and 'permission' to make their games their own from day one.

 

[Hussar]

Happened to be perusing the Spell Compendium tonight and noticed a Bard spell: War Cry. Basically, you cast it, get a +4 to hit and damage on a charge, don't take an AC penalty for charging and, if you hit and do damage, your target needs to make a will save or be panicked for 1 round.

Is there any reason that can't be a fighter maneuver? Seems a perfectly legit one to me. Yes, it's currently written as a bard spell, but, meh, change the flavour a bit and poof, instant fighter goodie.

Actually, on further look, I noticed there's a whole bunch of bard spells between 1st and 3rd level that would work beautifully as maneuvers. Never mind stuff like Warning Shout from the paladin that removes the flat footed condition from all allies and wakes anyone sleeping. Seems good to me.

I think, like Bo9S, we're going to see a pretty decent mix of, for lack of better words, "martial training moves" and "mystical moves" that people can mix and pick. And, I'm going to bet that they're going to change the introductory text to downplay the wire-fu inspirations a bit.