Why the beer hate? (Forked Thread: What are the no-goes...)

[ShinHakkaider]

Inquiring minds wanna know: Real-life experience or way over-the-top exaggeration?

Unfortunately real life experience.

I wasn't in the room when it happened, I stepped out to the bodega to get some snacks. When I came back, though there had obviously been some kind of occurrence because the offender wasn't there and the victim was still pretty pissed off about a perfectly good bag and it's contents just gone to waste.

I was the outside man who'd been invited to the group and I was told that they like to have a few beers while they play. Initially I was a little concerned, but I wanted to play in their game so I put it aside. Everything was going fine until about the 3rd or 4th hour of the game when they'd gone into their 3rd 6 pack (spilt amongst 4 guys, 6 of us I wasn't drinking and the DM only had 2 if I'm remembering correctly).

Keep in mind that I'm not saying all groups are like that, I just dont want to find out WHICH groups are like that.

 

[Mallus]

You don't know how someone's going to behave under the influence until you see them under the influence. So, he should allow someone to ruin his time at least once as a drunken idiot before he takes action?

Well... yes. You don't know how someone's going to behave until to you've seem them... behave. Period. End of sentence. And really, running the risk of someone else 'ruining your time' is a basic cost of social interaction (hell is other people for a reason!).

But when a lone man decides to draw the line at alcohol for his own reasons, then there's an argument, and some say he's behaving in a socially unacceptable manner?

I'm not saying that anyone is acting in an unacceptable manner. But I do think the idea that (any) alcohol use (alone) can be used as a barometer to predict how much trouble another individual will potentially cause you is batty. It strikes me as an ineffective strategy, not a faux pas.

Where I'm from alcohol use is an unavoidable part of adult life. Avoiding situations where it's consumed would mean giving up weddings, funerals, christenings, parties, good restaurants, and last, but certainly not least, bars.

 

[Bumbles]

For myself it was hard to understand why someone would have such strong feelings against a few beers (in my opinion inoffensive, when now and then), making him impose what appeared to be extreme and kinda arbitrary rules.

It's not the few beers that gives me the strong feelings. It's the behaviors caused by the people who drank them. Or more than a few. People who think it's because I have a problem with some folks wanting their alcohol to have fun are mistaken. It's because of folks who don't know their limits and because I simply refuse to argue it with them. I don't want to arbitrate it with them. If I make it personal, they take it personal. So I keep it impersonal, so if they argue on the line, I can say "It's not personal, that rule I apply to everybody, not just you" which they either accept or don't. If they don't, one of us leaves.

It took some of us (i.e., me) many many pages to understand his point of view because many of his posts were so vague and some times missing the point of the questions.

Whereas I think it took so long because people wanted unnecessary personal details and missed the point of what I said.

(That's how I see it, Bumbles, honest)

Well, how do you think I see things from my point of view? I see people who refused to understand what I was saying, took things off on their own track, and who didn't listen to my explanations. I felt like I was forced to qualify everything I said, otherwise I would be misinterpreted and derided for it.

You did it yourself. Only a little bit, but still, I found your description of my problem to be in error. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, and you feel I'm msinterpreting you, but hey, go figure. We're all human beings, and capable of these failings. When we can get past them, and understand each other, that's good. But too many people, I fear, confuse understanding with agreement.

As for my opinion (I don't pretend to speak for anyone else here), he can do whatever he wants as a host (prohibiting whatever he wants, accepting whoever likes that ruleset) or as a player (only playing with people that agree with his rules). I would be irritated if someone new joined our group and waged some campaign to stop us all from having a beer or lectured us on why it was bad based on some bad experience he had. We'd kick the guy out.

And this sort of thinking is why I refuse to go into a significant discussion with people I want to play with. I don't wish to annoy folks, and I've found if I go beyond the simplest of explanations, then that perception is more likely than not.

This thread has gotten a little contentious at times because the nature of the subject matter makes it very tempting and easy to go beyond "agreeing to disagree" and try to give examples or logical arguments on why the other guy's standard is too harsh/wrong/bad for gaming, whatever.

Absolutely. That's something I truly wish to avoid, which may be why Wepwawet thinks I'm being vague. In a sense, I am.

Ultimately though, I think we can all agree that the game's great because it allows us to self-select a group of people that enjoy the same things we do, no?

One of the better things in life is that. I spent too long hanging out with people who I didn't enjoy being around before I wised up.

I think you misunderstand that. I wasn't claiming there's a universal stadard of social acceptability; I was merely saying that, for me, I would find it very difficult having any kind of social relationship with a person who lumped me in with problematic individuals just because it's more ocnvenient for him to avoid confrontation with those peope.

Except you're not being lumped in with them, and if you think of it that way, then I see why you're upset, but the thing is, I feel that's because you're perceiving it as a personal matter, when it's not one to me. But I know I am very limited in my ability to convince somebody that I'm not judging them when they break some rule or another. I know others have the same problem too. (I see it in the local tournament I mentioned above). Which, of course, is why I prefer to avoid the confrontation when I can.

As I said -I, myself, would prefer to deal with a problematic individual if/when the situation arises.

I wish I could. But I realized my limits long ago. Sometimes problematic individuals can't be dealt with as individuals. Sometimes you still have to do it on an individual basis, but drinking is one it's easier to stop before it has a chance to begin to be a problem.

 

[nerfherder]

Disagree with the second. Just because people don't complain doesn't mean they don't notice. They're just too polite to say, "dude, you REEK!"

Yes - I have had my head down, deep in thought at work, and been pulled out of it by the unpleasant smell of smoke. I've then looked up and realised that one of the smokers has just come in from a cigarette break.

 

[Bumbles]

Well... yes. You don't know how someone's going to behave until to you've seem them... behave. Period. End of sentence. And really, running the risk of someone else 'ruining your time' is a basic cost of social interaction (hell is other people for a reason!).

Indeed, it remains a risk. Nonetheless, it can be valuable if some of the risk can be reduced even if the entirety of the risk is not eliminated.

But I do think the idea that (any) alcohol use (alone) can be used as a barometer to predict how much trouble another individual will potentially cause you is batty.

That specific idea is not being applied here. The idea, as I would put it, is that removing alcohol (a potential influence that can lead to negative behavior) from a situation removes one potential source of trouble.

I feel nothing about a person's simple use of alcohol (ie, do they or don't they), though I reserve the right to have a feeling about the degree of their use. It's just that I disallow the use at games to avoid the bother of worrying about their degree.

But do you see how my expression differs from yours?

It strikes me as an ineffective strategy, not a faux pas.

Well, it's been a strategy applied the world over, in hospitals, in mines, on airplanes...and at many social events. Every public park where I live has signs around it stating the rules. No drinking. No smoking. Some others.

Why do they have these signs if they're so ineffective as a policy? (Note, I'm not saying the enforcement is universally effective, I once found an unopened bottle of beer in a park along with the rest of the pack which had been smashed up underneath a slide.)

You could say "Well, that's because of the larger groups introducing an uncertainly dynamic" as one person did earlier. But to that I ask, am I supposed to have to know everybody extensively before I game with them? And what if it happens anyway?

No, for me, there's no unbearable cost to not allowing drinking, or to avoiding situations where drinking occurs. Sure, there's an opportunity cost, but for me, I've decided it's outweighed by the risk of the problems. Especially since I don't drink, and I've found people bothered by that when I say "No" . Some people can't accept that you don't find drinking fun. Or them to be funny while drunk.

 

[Doodles]

(actually, I prefer Calvados as my postprandial fire-water).

You, Sir, are a man of taste. A good Norman Calvados, now that's something!

 

[Imperialus]

I've got another hypothetical here, just because I could very easally see it happening to me.

Say you join my group lets say back around January. You're upfront and state that you're not comfortable gaming while drinking is going on. I say, yeah, that's cool and sure enough the group doesn't drink.

You join the group and everything is cool. Our playstyles mesh, and a good time is had by all.

Now lets say a few weeks ago I send out an email to the group suggesting that we get together ahead of the game for a 4th of July (or Canada day in my case) BBQ and play afterward.

When you show up I say "Hey, I'm just putting the steaks on. There's pop and beer in the fridge, help yourself." You see one of the other players has arrived before you and he's mixing the salad and has a beer open.

I really only see 5 possible responses.

1) Say nothing and grab a pop. Eat dinner and play the game afterwards.

2) Grab a pop, stay and eat dinner, but mention afterward that the alchohol made you uncomfortable.

3) Say "I'd rather not be around any alchohol, do you mind putting it away?"

4) Say "I don't want to be around any alcohol. I'm going to go home and skip this session. I'll see you next week."

5) Say "I don't want to be around anyone who drinks. I'm goin to leave now" and leave the group.

As far as my responses go.

1) I wouldn't even realize there was a problem. And to be perfectly honest, having known my group for as long as I have, you probably wouldn't even realize that we had had a drink with dinner.

2) I'd be quite apologetic, and make sure that any time we had the group over there wasn't any booze.

3) I'd be a little weirded out, though my first concern would probably be to ask if you were allergic to anything in beer, because I used a beer based marinade for the steaks. Then the beer would go away. If you said yes, you were allergic then an marinaded steak would come out.

4) I'd be embarrassed, and probably a little offended. I'm taking the time to cook you dinner, and host a game and I'd feel like you're judging me and your fellow group members. There is a distinct possibility you wouldn't be invited back.

5) I'd be embarrassed and offended. From my point of view, I was trying to be a good host. I offered you a beer, not a line of coke and your reaction was way out of line.

 

[Chainsaw]

And this sort of thinking is why I refuse to go into a significant discussion with people I want to play with. I don't wish to annoy folks, and I've found if I go beyond the simplest of explanations, then that perception is more likely than not.

I don't game with strangers that I haven't had a good discussion with beforehand. I say, "Do you mind if my wife has a glass of wine while she plays?" and if they say, "Not at all. Usually someone's drinking a beer," then we're probably good to go (I probably do a test run by myself first anyway). If the response is, "Not at all, last week a guy did a shot whenever his character killed something!" then I probably think twice before even doing a test run, much less bringing my wife.

For me, the discussion, either as a host or a player, involves setting the appropriate expectations beforehand. Honestly, I usually don't commit to a group until after I've done a test session or two. Same if I'm hosting - no promises on a long-term seat until you've been vetted.

If it's easier for you to just say "No drinking" at your house or to not join a game where someone drinks, that's your right. That's cool. Personally, that would potentially eliminate some good players who are responsible drinkers, so I wouldn't go that route. I'm probably just a bit more risk tolerant, I guess - maybe because I've never really experienced a bad drinking/gaming incident.

 

[The Ghost]

That specific idea is not being applied here. The idea, as I would put it, is that removing alcohol (a potential influence that can lead to negative behavior) from a situation removes one potential source of trouble.

Ok. What other potential influences that can lead to negative behavior do you not allow when you game? (I know this kind of goes back to the original thread) Narcotics? Tobacco? Sugar? Prescription Meds? OTC Meds? Energy Drinks? Cheetos?

The reason I ask is that I am trying to get an understanding of where you (and others) draw the line.

 

[Desdichado]

I agree that the reactions to the statement are more interesting than the statement itself. As a person who doesn't drink... at all, ever... and doesn't smoke... at all, ever... I'd still probably be leery of joining a group that felt it necessary to put that down, especially in writing, before playing. To me, that's a more troubling sign than the notion that a beer or two might be consumed during a session.

If a lit cigarette were present at the table the whole session, or something like that, I'd probably leave the group after seeing that happen. That's unpleasant. If people were getting literally drunk, I'd probably leave the group as well, assuming that the rest of the group didn't step forward and say, "dude, this is a problem." (The most likely consequence, in my opinion.) If people were doing any other drugs at the table, I'd probably get up and leave right then.

I'm not real happy about drinking, but I understand that folks do it. It's never been a problem in my experience that folks drink a beer or two during a five hour session. I've never yet seen anyone behave noticeably different because of it. I'm not real happy about smoking, but I understand that folks do it, as long as they go outside to do so. Heck, I often go with the smokers on their smoke breaks to stretch my legs and chat with them while they're smoking about the game.

Unlike Lord Mhoram, I don't really have the option of easily finding gamers who's opinions on a number of issues line up with mine. I also don't drink or smoke for religious reasons, primarily (although there are plenty of other reasons that are great ones to make that same choice) but I don't (like him) live in an area where active participation in my religion is the majority situation. Because of that, I think it's incumbent on me personally to be a bit more tolerant of other people's habits rather than try to impose my own on any given social situation.

Frankly, if I were that strict about my choice of association, I'd miss out on some great friends and great games. I really like my gaming group, which features two chain smokers and pretty much everyone (besides me) being a social drinker.

Interestingly, when it's my turn to have the game at my house, we don't drink. I don't have anything alcoholic in my house, with the exception of some aftershave, but nobody brings anything either. I've never said that I don't want them to; they just know I don't drink. If they brought a six-pack and split them amongst them, I don't think it'd bother me, actually (plus; free deposits back on those bottles and cans!) but they don't.

I guess to me that's a much more compelling social glue than beer: sufficient respect for ones friends to allow them their beliefs, and not try to bully them on principle. The fact that nobody brings beer to my house speaks volumes about the respect they have for me, even though I've never asked them not to, and probably wouldn't, either.