Why the beer hate? (Forked Thread: What are the no-goes...)

[Bumbles]

I don't game with strangers that I haven't had a good discussion with beforehand.

Sorry, I was trying to avoid using the word "argument" and I think my switching to the word discussion was misleading. I have a discussion with them. I just don't get into a long involved one. In other words, I don't try to convince anyone to change their ways.

I keep things short and simple, as a longer, more involved process? I don't feel it's been more effective, but rather, more prone to argument.

 

[Umbran]

I think you misunderstand that.

Nope. You were clear. The "new, unrelated thought" bit was intended to show I was not longer responding to your post, specifically. Sorry if that didn't do the job.

 

[rogueattorney]

It will vary considerably.

I and most of my friends come from a working class midwestern culture, which alcohol is very much a part of. It is a social glue that brings people together. I have to remember that not everyone will realize this, but having a beer is one of the primary ways people here socialize. It would be the height of rudeness to ask someone not to drink beer in their own house. Conversely, for them not to offer you one of their beers even if you've just met would also be rude. Most of the time if I'm meeting someone new I'll accept just a beer just to be sociable, even if its a brand I despise.

Now most people are accepting if someone doesn't want to drink a beer, though there's often a moment of making sure that this isn't because the one offering hasn't offended the person in some way. A cursory explaination will take care of it, such as 'my Dad was an alcoholic' or 'its against my religion'. But the default assumption is the social message "I'm not going to drink a beer with you because I'm not your friend."

This makes the militant anti-drinkers look very odd and outcast from where I'm standing. Though with the people they game with I would likely be the one on the outside for popping open a beer, asking them if they wanted any, and upon refusal telling them the different brands I have or offering to make a mixed drink out of the liqour cabinet.

This. Right here is where I'm coming from.

Almost literally - I'm only about 90 miles from Maddman.

 

[Umbran]

Actually, I would find it odd if a muslim forbade me drinking just because I was sitting at his table.

Odd, yes. The question was more about whether it would be acceptable.

Regarding the drinking and drugs difference, your stance strikes me as really odd. It's quite simple. One is illegal, one is not. It's that simple.

No, it is most certainly not that simple. A great many folks have personal standards different than the law. Maybe they'll let minors drink at their table. Maybe they don't mind marijuana, but will draw the line at something harder, and so on.

"Legal" and "what I will personally tolerate" are only loosely connected, at best.

As an example at the other end: I have seen folks draw a line at the high-end caffeinated energy drinks. While perfectly legal, the caffeine is enough to make some people very twitchy and annoying.

 

[Morrus]

Except you're not being lumped in with them, and if you think of it that way, then I see why you're upset, but the thing is, I feel that's because you're perceiving it as a personal matter, when it's not one to me.

But it is a personal matter. To me. Not the drinking itself; the implied generalisation. You're essentially saying "I suspect you of being an obnoxious uncontrollable drunkard" when you have no evidence to suggest such a thing. Whether you disclaim it or not, you're engaging in a strategy which will make people feel like you're judging them - and, really, you are. You just claim not to be (I mean that in the nicest possible way).

You can't disclaim behaviour with the prefix "it isn't personal". For example, if I were to call you a deeply offensive name (not that I would), and then qualify it by saying "that's because you're perceiving it as a personal matter, when it's not one to me", how would you feel?

Don't get me wrong; in a practical sense this matters to me far less than it does as a hypothetical messageboard discussion point. I'm just debating here - in actual practice I'd just go along with it. Although if you walked out of my game just because someone opened a beer, I'm pretty sure there would be a "don't let the door hit you on the way out!" attitude prevalent amongst the group.

 

[Obryn]

This. Right here is where I'm coming from.

Almost literally - I'm only about 90 miles from Maddman.

Hah - Yep! Me, too. Although I'm only about 50-60 miles away, in Bloomington/Normal.

I was raised in the Chicago suburbs and the same rules re: Beer applied there, too, basically.

-O

 

[Fifth Element]

But it is a personal matter. To me. Not the drinking itself; the implied generalisation. You're essentially saying "I suspect you of being an obnoxious uncontrollable drunkard" when you have no evidence to suggest such a thing. Whether you disclaim it or not, you're engaging in a strategy which will make people feel like you're judging them - and, really, you are. You just claim not to be (I mean that in the nicest possible way).

No, he's really not. He's saying, essentially, "I know that some people can be obnoxious when they drink. I have no way of knowing which people these are. I don't particularly care to find out. So let's leave the alcohol out, shall we?" I think a mature person can handle that without taking it as an attack or a judgment.

 

[Bumbles]

Now lets say a few weeks ago I send out an email to the group suggesting that we get together ahead of the game for a 4th of July (or Canada day in my case) BBQ and play afterward.

I wouldn't be foolish enough to go to such a BBQ without asking. If you said there was going to be drinking, I'd suggest you run a one-shot or a fun-game rather than an on-going campaign session. If you said you'd make sure nobody over-indulged, and that you were prepared to deal with anybody making trouble, I would be willing to show up after the BBQ for the game session.

If you couldn't, then I'd say, well, I won't be coming. If you had a real problem with that, then I'd say, well, I'll be leaving then, because I see no reason to have an argument with you over it. More than likely, it'll be because you feel insulted by my decision, but me, I consider it living by the principles I have chosen, and respecting instead of compromising* myself.

*And note, I don't mean I'm against compromise, as in the sense of finding a mutually acceptable state of affairs(I do believe I gave some above), I mean that more in the sense of a jeopardy.

Ok. What other potential influences that can lead to negative behavior do you not allow when you game? (I know this kind of goes back to the original thread) Narcotics? Tobacco? Sugar? Prescription Meds? OTC Meds? Energy Drinks? Cheetos?

The reason I ask is that I am trying to get an understanding of where you (and others) draw the line.

I've already said my position on smoking. I'd also include chewing tobacco with that. I'm not sure what you mean by Narcotics, since you also used the word Prescription Meds in your list. So I'll assume you mean illegal drugs. In which case, again, not allowed. Prescription and OTC meds are allowed, however, I would prefer anybody who is sick to say so and stay out of the game. We'll run something without you. If you medication affects you, then I hope you don't have a problem accepting that, because if you do, when we have a problem. Fortunately, most people are less likely to be intransigent about those kinds of influences. I haven't yet had somebody who couldn't admit their allergy med or cough syrup made them fall asleep. People who share prescription meds do get in trouble though. To those, I will direct them to a copy of the law and ask them if they want me to lose my job.

 

[Morrus]

No, he's really not. He's saying, essentially, "I know that some people can be obnoxious when they drink. I have no way of knowing which people these are. I don't particularly care to find out. So let's leave the alcohol out, shall we?" I think a mature person can handle that without taking it as an attack or a judgment.

That is the definition of generalisation/stereotyping, though. That's exactly what the word means.

Remember, we're debating hypothetical semantics here; I wouldn't throw a tantrum about it in real life because it's not that important to me. This is more an intellectual exercise exploring the concept.

Like I said, in his house, I'd have no issue accepting his rules - although if they were too strenuous or abritrary, I'd elect not to be there (I'd have no real issue with the no drinking, but a compulsory pink fluffy hat might go too far).

It's a silly conversation, anyway (not that Bumbles has started a silly topic, but that it's almost redundant discussing it to this depth). In the real world (as opposed to on a messgeboard) such things work themselves out via normal social dynamics. Nobdy analyses stuff to this extent in a real situation.

 

[Fifth Element]

I want to commend Bumbles on repeatedly and calmly attempting to explain his point. I understand what he's getting at. Treating everyone the same way is the opposite of being personal, in some sense.

Drinking has never been an issue in any game I have played. In the sense that it's never even come up. Obviously, when I started playing at age 12 it wasn't an issue. But even into high school and college years, although some of the guys I played with were drinkers (in general), no one even suggested drinking at D&D.

I currently play in two groups. One meets at my house, and the subject has never been raised. They know my wife and I don't drink at all, and maybe it's because we tend to play in the afternoon or what have you, but it's never come up. The one smoker takes his smoke breaks outside, didn't ask, just courtesy to the rest of us.

The other group doesn't meet at my place. The hosts there drink a little, I believe, though again I've never seen the subject raised. We play in the evenings there, and there are at least three out of the seven people who would have to drive, but it doesn't seem to even cross anyone's mind.

Speaking as someone who has made a conscious decision to never drink, I am certainly wary of raising such a topic because I am generally then forced to defend a personal decision. People are often incredulous when you tell them you don't drink: "You don't? Why not?" with a look that says "what's wrong with you?" I have a couple of specific reasons, but I'm not going to share them because they're personal.