Why the beer hate? (Forked Thread: What are the no-goes...)

[amethal]

A fifth is a measurement, usually of alcohol, equaling one fifth of a US Gallon. A fifth is about 25 fluid ounces or approximately 750 milliliters. It's one of those odd, older measurements that are rarely used these days outside of the liquor industry.

Then I drank two fifths of Shiraz last night. Doesn't sound too bad when you say it like that, but I certainly couldn't manage that every night.

 

[Bumbles]

Is the book shop owner being judgemental? Would you feel offended at being lumped in with the most offensive examples of gamerdom?

Seems to me there's a bit of a mix-up here, because they aren't preventing the problem of gaming, but by your own words, excluding gamers. I don't keep out people who drink alcohol from my games, I keep people from drinking the alcohol at my games. Two different things. And as I said before, while I'm generally not interested in drinking, I don't care about people talking about it enough to disapprove. It's like Professional Golfing. I could care less. See the first page of this thread, I think I said it there.

Getting on to the subject of the discussion: I know many bookstores that allow, even encourage, folks to sit and read. I know others with signs that say "Please do not read the books here, as it reduces our ability to sell them since you can damage them" and so forth. Either is fine with me. And if a store doesn't want to sell some product, who am I to argue? I'm about to go to a used bookstore that refuses books all the time by category. Sure some of them might sell, but who am I to argue with them? (Leaving aside the fact that I never trade-in books anyway.). I have also been in stores where the employees have had to say to customers that there conversations were making other people uncomfortable, and ask them to stop. I don't see any reason to resent that. If my friends or family have a conversation about something that makes me uncomfortable, I'll also say "I don't wish to discuss that" as I have already done many a time. Some things you just learn to avoid getting yourself involved in.

Some things I haven't. Sigh.

 

[Chainsaw]

Then I drank two fifths of Shiraz last night. Doesn't sound too bad when you say it like that, but I certainly couldn't manage that every night.

My wife drank a six-pack of Shiraz last Saturday. Wait, that doesn't sound good at all..

 

[Scribble]

I like beer, and I like wine. I go wine tasting a lot with my wife and friends. We enjoy buying new types of wine and beer, and keeping a record of the types we enjoy, and what we enjoy about them.

I drink beer at my games, occasionally wine. I usually eat dinner while running the game. Normally 1 -2 beers, sometimes 3 depending on how long the game session is. Very rarely do I drink more then 2. Games for me a way to relax with friends after a long week at work. Beer and wine along with tasting good, are also a stress relief. I don't drink enough to impair myself, both for safety reasons and because I'm the DM and DMing a game is hard enough already...

If someone is offended by this, and wouldn't want to game with me... Shrug- that's their issue not mine.

I don't have a problem if someone prefers not to drink. I don't drink Soda at first for weight loss reasons, and now because it's been so long that it tastes terrible to me, and the "benefits" don't outweigh the drawbacks to me.

To each his own.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

You don't know how someone's going to behave under the influence until you see them under the influence. So, he should allow someone to ruin his time at least once as a drunken idiot before he takes action?

Pretty much, yes. To do otherwise is a statement that you consider all people idiots under the influence of even one alcoholic beverage. And the best part is that it's not even "guilty until proven responsible." It's "guilty, and there's no chance to prove yourself responsible."

He can frame it in a different way, and he tries, but the above is the actual situation.

Also, that's not his only claim. He also claims that so many people he games with are idiots in the presence of alcohol (but not otherwise) that dealing with the idiots as a mature adult would (i.e., individually and personally) would leave him with "a lot" fewer people to game with. Really?

Stepping to a new, unrelated thought - It is funny where people draw lines.

It's actually not. (Well, sometimes it is, but not in the case you seem to have in mind. In that case, there are about 10 good reasons for where the line is drawn.)

I don't think anyone here has made a cogent argument that it would not be acceptable to disallow harder drugs at the table.

In point of fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone here for whom "hard drugs at the table are allowed" is any sort of default.

Where does it get funny where people draw lines? (Or was that just a cocaine reference?)

There are entire human cultures who have eschewed alcohol based on belief

So what? There are entire human cultures who put people having consensual sex to death, too, based on belief.

it seems to be accepted that if the guy was a Muslim, it would be okay to say no to alcohol at the table.

Not by me.

Or, to be more precise, it's "okay" for him to make any rules he wants at his table. It's his right, and I've said that before. I have, in fact, not seen a single person dispute that. But his right to indulge in controlling, peculiar behavior doesn't change the fact that it's controlling behavior, and it doesn't change the fact that his behavior (and his almost unbelievably weak justification for it) is damned peculiar.

some say he's behaving in a socially unacceptable manner?

What do you mean by "unacceptable"? I accept all kinds of controlling, peculiar behavior. I commit all kinds of controlling, peculiar behavior.

Of course, I admit that's what it is.

The guy's got a quirk. Big fat hairy deal!

Sure. Now, does he admit that he's engaging in peculiar behavior (i.e., "quirk"), or does he shotgun bizarre justifications all over the place, hoping something finds a target?

'Cause it looks an awful lot like the latter to me.

(Seriously? If he eliminated the "drunken idiots," he'd have "a lot fewer" people to game with? Sheesh.)

 

[Desdichado]

In point of fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone here for who "hard drugs at the table" are allowed as any sort of default.

Depending on what you mean by "hard drugs", there's been a few references to it at the table (or at least at the session) here in this very thread. So, no... you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find that.

 

[Mistwell]

Well, that's what they say about assumptions, they make an ass out of you and me.

Please don't call me names because you were unclear. Take responsibility for your mistake.

Instead of arguing over who was at fault, why don't we check those problems, and stick with the real issue? This group, of people who know each other well enough to be familiar with each other and who did know it was going to be a problem, chose to do nothing about it, and now have a worse problem, as now folks have been put through the conflict when they could have avoided it.

What problem though? What worse problem? You are making an analogy devoid of any details at all. You claim it's analogous, and want us to take your word that it is an analogous situation, yet all the prior examples you gave were clearly not analogous. So, given your track record, it's fair to ask you WHAT THE HECK YOU ARE REFERRING TO. All we know right now is "it was not a problem concerning alcohol", which is the topic of this thread.

Just like I've had a hard time learning that some disagreements just can't be resolved. This seems to be one of them, so before it gets worse, I'll bow out. I am not able to communicate well enough with you, and my experiences seem to be far too divergent. It happens. Maybe somebody else can do better than I can.

You are communicating just fine, except for leaving out information that is relevant to assessing an analogy of yours. I hope you will continue to try and discuss this.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Depending on what you mean by "hard drugs", there's been a few references to it at the table (or at least at the session) here in this very thread. So, no... you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find that.

Yes, you would.

There is a significant distinction between "I knew a guy who was under the influence of hard drugs at the table" and "by default, hard drugs are allowed at the table." It's not a semantic or trivial difference. It's a logical, important difference.

Are there groups that allow hard drug use at the table? Probably. But they're gonna be few and far between, and I contend you'll be hard pressed to find one.

Oh, and for what it's worth? It would be damned peculiar behavior!

 

[Desdichado]

No, I wouldn't. I've already said I've seen a couple in this very thread.

Unless, again, you're quibbling about what it means to be "hard." For my purposes, if it's illegal, it's hard.

I'd certainly agree that it's peculiar behavior, though, and that I would hardly expect it to happen as a matter of course.

 

[Mistwell]

OK, to put to rest this "Beer in moderation is bad for you" aspect of the debate that seems to recur, I present to you 10 reasons why:

Beer In Moderation Is Healthy

1. Lowers Rate of Coronary Heart Disease

A researcher at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center reports that men and women who consume moderate amounts of beer (one to two a day) have a 30-40% lower rate of coronary heart disease compared to men and women who didn't drink. The positive health effects of light to moderate consumption of beer match that of previously released studies regarding red wine and provides more benefits than white wine. The report states that "per drink, beer contains a similar amount of polyphenols (antioxidants) as red wine and 4-5 times as many polyphenols as white wine." Research by Margo Denke, M.D., Associate professor of Internal Medicine at UT Southwestern, May 1999

2. Lowers Rate of Stroke

The New England Journal of Medicine reported in November, 1999 that moderate beer drinking decreases the probability of suffering a stroke by 20%

3. Aids Vitamin B6 Absorbtion Into Blood Plasma

The TNO Nutrition and Food Research Institute discovered that beer contains vitamin B6, which prevents the accumulation of the amino acid homocysteine (linked to causing vascular and heart disease). Beer aids vitamin B6 absorption into the blood plasma by 30%.

4. Beer Increases Good Cholesterol (thus reducing the risk of dementia and coronary diseases, and Parkinsons).

Alcohol, including beer, in moderation raises high-density lipoprotein or HDL, known as good cholesterol, says Dr. R. Curtis Ellison, chief of the section of preventive medicine and epidemiology and professor of medicine and public health at the Boston University School of Medicine....Several studies have found that moderate alcohol consumption, including
moderate beer drinking and some additional lifestyle factors are associated with a lower risk of developing Parkinson’s disease

5. Beer Has Anti-Cancer Properties

A flavonoid compound, Xanthohumol found in hops used in brewing beer has been identified to play a major role in chemoprevention of cancer, including prostate cancer. According to Bio-medicine, beer is also a good source of polyphenols due to the grains used for fermentation. Beer has been proven effective against fighting cancer just like red wine. In 2004 research by scientists at the Universidade do Porto in Portugal found that polyphenols in wine and beer appeared to significantly decrease breast cancer cells.

6. Beer Reduces Chance of Osteoporosis and Increases Bone Density

Beer is a rich source of dietary silicon, a mineral that improves bone density. "Wine, unfortunately, is not," notes biochemist Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D., chairman of the Department of Food Science and Technology at the University of California, Davis, and author of Beer: Health and Nutrition (Blackwell Publishing Limited, 2004), an academic book on the healthful properties of brew. "Thus far, the studies indicate a very real reduction in osteoporosis risk if you consume beer … more so than from drinking wine or spirits."

7. Beer Reduces Risk of Hypertension

In one Harvard University study involving 70,000 female nurses, regular beer drinkers had lower rates of high blood pressure than those who drank similar amounts of either wine or spirits.

8. Beer Reduces Risk of Heart Attack

Similarly, a study carried out in Isreal back in 2003 found that a beer a day could help diminish the risk of heart attacks. In preliminary clinical studies of a group of men with coronary artery disease, the researchers showed that drinking one beer (12 ounces) a day for a month produced changes in blood chemistry that are associated with a reduced risk of heart attack.

9. Beer Reduces Risk of Diabetes

Dr. Andrea Howard, Assistant Professor, Epidemiology & Population Health and Medicine Montefiore Medical Center, The University Hospital for the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, indicated in October of 2006 a systematic review of 18 cohort studies assessing the association of alcohol use with the incidence of diabetes in adults. The data indicate that, compared with nondrinkers, moderate drinkers (those who consume 1-3 drinks/day) have a lower risk of diabetes mellitus. Compared with moderate drinkers, heavy drinkers (>3 drinks/day) may have a greater risk of developing the disease. The potential biological mechanisms for the impact of light/moderate alcohol consumption on diabetes risk include enhanced insulin sensitivity and lower levels of inflammatory markers. Light/moderate alcohol consumption may also be a marker for a healthy lifestyle.

10. Beer Reduces Risk of Gallstones

Several studies have shown an association between moderate alcohol consumption and a decreased risk of developing gallstones. This has been reported with consumption of all types of alcoholic beverages and the risk is lowest in those who consume frequently. There are several plausible explanations for this finding which include the effect of alcoholic drinks on cholesterol levels and reduced bile concentration

So, while I respect people who do not drink, AND I MYSELF DO NOT OFTEN DRINK AND AM NOT A BIG FAN OF THE TASTE OF MOST BEERS, can we please stop claiming that beer in moderation is bad for you, or that it should be labeled a toxin, or that it should be looked on as less healthy than Soda (which has no such studies backing it as healthy)?