D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

[Cadence]

You place PHB equipment lists under the purview of the DM? I can't think of a single instance where I even bothered asking the DM about buying a horse, let alone having a DM intervene when I did so. It's in the PHB for a reason.

via Gygax...

In many campaigns it is necessary for the characters to shop in a number of places in order to obtain everything they desire. A few games will have a trader's establishment in which everything, or nearly everything, can be found, but the average costs will be higher because these traders are middle-men.

As in most dealings, the buyer should always beware. Things may be as they appear or they might be otherwise...

B2 lays out what part of the list the provisioner has, and what part the trader has. There were no horses for sale in the keep as far as I can tell.

2e PhB says the DM may alter the equipment availability or prices but should tell you they've done so (but its good to for the player to check with them if they have doubts).

2e DMG has special rules (running a bit over an entire page long) on horse quality and buying horses because its tricky. Although, "[f]or simplicity, [the DM] can assume all horses are of average quality."

The Black Company setting for 3e lists the rarity level for each type of equipment and has rules on locating it (a light horse is "occasional" and smaller towns may not have one at all times; light war is "specialty" and might have to be specially imported).

PF notes that GMs may wish to restirct availability, but most things shouldn't be that hard to find.


But sure, if "Aurora's Whole Realms Shop Catalogue Counter"s (Volo's Guide 2e) are particularly common in the villages and towns you frequent then the above concerns are probably moot.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But, that7s the thing. In D&D, access to earth shaking magic, by the rules, is pretty common. Never minding the classed casters, you've got all sorts of monsters and whatnot that also have world changing magic. The only way that you can use D&D as a world building system is to ignore vast swaths of the rules.

I don't know. For me, most D&D settings I've played in seem to reflect the presence of magic pretty well enough. Every world seems to adapt that differently of course because people have different ideas about how specific spells might affect setting. And there is also only so much probing into the issue one can do . Are there specific things you feel ought to be in forgotten realms, Ravenloft , glantri, or dragon lance due to magic that are not? But again having just read the frizzy books again , you see how magic and the way gods function affect the under dark. It's been a while since I was in a forgotten realms campaign but it felt like it matched my experience.

These sorts of things could probably taken to an extreme level of pedantry I suppose where people examine every rule, spell, monster, etc under a microscope to demonstrate how radically different the setting should be. That level of scrutiny though isn't much interest to me as a player or GM.

 

[Hussar]

via Gygax...



B2 lays out what part of the list the provisioner has, and what part the trader has. There were no horses for sale in the keep as far as I can tell.

From memory, Basic D&D had no rules for buying a horse, so, it's not a surprise.

2e PhB says the DM may alter the equipment availability or prices but should tell you they've done so (but its good to for the player to check with them if they have doubts).

2e DMG has special rules (running a bit over an entire page long) on horse quality and buying horses because its tricky. Although, "[f]or simplicity, [the DM] can assume all horses are of average quality."

The Black Company setting for 3e lists the rarity level for each type of equipment and has rules on locating it (a light horse is "occasional" and smaller towns may not have one at all times; light war is "specialty" and might have to be specially imported).

PF notes that GMs may wish to restirct availability, but most things shouldn't be that hard to find.


But sure, if "Aurora's Whole Realms Shop Catalogue Counter"s (Volo's Guide 2e) are particularly common in the villages and towns you frequent then the above concerns are probably moot.

Sure, and I agree with that. But, like the 2e books say, if you're futzing about with basic equipment lists from the PHB, the DM typically informs the player beforehand. Or, at worst, it might be, "Oh, sorry, no horses in my world" if someone comes to the table with a horse. But, barring something like that, I'd stand by the idea that PHB equipment lists aren't really something that comes up that often. Sure, situationally it might change - no horses might be available, but, it would likely be pretty obvious when that's true.

Meh, it's a pretty minor issue AFAIC.

Bedrockgames - I'd point out that there are many, MANY threads on En World where this sort of thing gets talked about endlessly. The changes that Continual Light has on a game world, just to name one example, saw people arguing that the Gods themselves would get involved in shutting down clerics from lighting up the city. All sorts of extra-curricular rules start getting added to stop magic from radically altering the setting.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Bedrockgames - I'd point out that there are many, MANY threads on En World where this sort of thing gets talked about endlessly. The changes that Continual Light has on a game world, just to name one example, saw people arguing that the Gods themselves would get involved in shutting down clerics from lighting up the city. All sorts of extra-curricular rules start getting added to stop magic from radically altering the setting.

Sure. I still find that sort of probing pedantic for my tastes. I mean there are all kinds of threads on the internet about virtually any book, film or setting where people find the logic flaws, holes, inconsistencies, etc. I tend to only worry about that stuff if it's really glaring and hard to ignore.

 

[Hussar]

Sure. I still find that sort of probing pedantic for my tastes. I mean there are all kinds of threads on the internet about virtually any book, film or setting where people find the logic flaws, holes, inconsistencies, etc. I tend to only worry about that stuff if it's really glaring and hard to ignore.

And, fair enough. To me, if you're going to claim that it's the mechanics that build the world, then ignore large swaths of the mechanics in order to build that world, then the mechanics aren't really all that good for world building.

Compare to systems which are good for world building - Traveler, GURPS, and others where the mechanics are specifically there to build the world around the PC's.

Of course, this gets back to the ongoing argument that D&D is a simulationist game. I don't buy into that at all since it simulates things very badly and the mechanics lead to great gaping flaws, holes and inconsistencies.

"Well there's no problem because I just ignore the problems" doesn't really prove anything does it? Sure, it's fine for you. But, for those of us who actually worry about setting consistency, then it really is a problem.

 

[Ratskinner]

I'd say that the setting is created and then mechanics are used to model certain aspects in the world that the players interact with. You don't start with, "Well, my world must conform to D&D concepts" typically. At least I don't. I start with, "Gee, I think I'll have a world invaded by demons" and then go from there.

I think for a lot of DMs that's actually a false dichotomy. That is, they start by saying "I think I'll have a world invaded by demons." However, "Demons" is already defined by a list of monsters in the MM. They'll likely be assuming quite a few other things about how the world works as well given the rules of D&D. (magic, etc.) So, the world ends up conforming to D&D concepts, but it wasn't necessarily intended that way. When I contrast this with a system like Fate, where magic can work uniquely in every campaign, where a group can start play not even knowing that magic and demons will be big things in this gameworld...and exactly how they function can be determined by the group as the game progresses or the GM can set it up ahead of time...to my eyes, every D&D world is constrained and limited by the rules.

 

[JamesonCourage]

if you're futzing about with basic equipment lists from the PHB, the DM typically informs the player beforehand. Or, at worst, it might be, "Oh, sorry, no horses in my world" if someone comes to the table with a horse. But, barring something like that, I'd stand by the idea that PHB equipment lists aren't really something that comes up that often. Sure, situationally it might change - no horses might be available, but, it would likely be pretty obvious when that's true.

This is my experience as well.

 

[Hussar]

Rat skinner, I'd largely agree with that. The system is going to influence how a world looks to some degree. DnD is idiosyncratic and frankly inflexible enough that any DnD world is going to share a fair bit of similarities.

If nothing else, the class system imposes a number of constraints.

But, that's a fair distance from saying that DnD is meant to be a world building game.

Sure anything I build with Lego is going to share a certain blockiness. But that doesn't mean that I'm constrained to only building certain things.

If the mechanics of DnD come first in world building the every DnD world would have to be pretty much the same. But, once you step back and build the world first and then apply the mechanics you can do pretty much anything.

 

[pemerton]

How do you know the DM did or didn't

Well if the GM had been taunting the players with the encounter level then they wouldn't have to ask, would they - because the GM would have told them!

 

[Sadras]

(snipped all over) If nothing else, the class system imposes a number of constraints.

But, that's a fair distance from saying that DnD is meant to be a world building game.

If the mechanics of DnD come first in world building the every DnD world would have to be pretty much the same. But, once you step back and build the world first and then apply the mechanics you can do pretty much anything.

Agree. This reminds me of the 2 enworld posters who argued over the stats of an aged weaver/spinstress and whether to use the mechanics or just use DM fiat. I've forgotten who they were, but if its anyone here no harm intended.
It was just such a hilarious exchange between the two.