Why we love D&D but hate d20

[Ranger REG]

I think the problem I have with d20 Star Wars is an intangible - it just doesn't feel right to me (see my comments on the previous quote, above, regarding gamer bias.) Maybe it feels like they've taken an iconic part of that particular game and made it "generic" - should stuff having to do with The Force be handled like any other feats, skills, or classes, or does it deserve it's own specialized mechanic?

Gawd, I hope you're not thinking that the Force should function like the "work like magic" psionic system presented in the Psionic's Handbook and Expanded Psionic's Handbook.

To be honest, it work perfectly well as a skill-n-feat (with class) system. But it is also treated differently. You need certain feats to use and improve certain Force skills. In a way, a modification to the known mechanics (gain class skills only by classes).

The reason I ask is because the movies make it pretty clear that there may be dozens of smugglers or rebel commanders, and a seemingly-infinite number of nameless, faceless stormtroopers, but the Jedi (and the Sith) are pretty special - anyone could become a smuggler or join the Imperial Army, but not everyone can manipulate the force...

So, in a way, the game (design) should reflect exactly that in the movie, so for those that are not Jedi or Sith, they are lesser PC to begin with? It would make for a lop-sided game where it is obvious to players that they should be either Jedi or Sith PC. Makes me wonder why is that the Jedi or the Sith is not running the Star Wars galaxy, since they have such "god-like" powers. For me, the Jedi and Sith are good at certain things, while the non-force-sensitive population are good at other things to compensate for the lack of such mystical powers.

 

[barsoomcore]

Ah, Dramatica. I used Dramatica for quite some time. For me though, it became a way of thinking about my stories rather than writing them. I have to this date never produced a complete story using that system. And I think there's a good reason why.

Great stories come out of emotional connection. When I get grabbed by a story and start writing it, it's because there's somebody (or somebodies) in the story I care about. I want to know what happens to them and so I tell myself the story in order to find out. If I erect a system around certain theories of narrative logic, I lose touch with these people and I cease to care enough to write the story in the first place.

I don't love Buffy because she's the Protagonist; I love her because she's brave and tough and doesn't complain when life keeps torturing her -- she just goes ahead and does what she knows is right, over and over again. Of course you can take the Dramatica character types and apply them, but it's like Syd Field's theories on screenplay page counts -- of course you can apply them to all sorts of works, but that doesn't mean they're very useful for making up new stories. They aren't for me, at any rate.

I think it's fine to say, "In this adventure Fred's going to be the driving force," or, "Let's come up with an adventure to focus around Abigail's background," but to build a campaign with ONE character as the "Protagonist" is, well, not a campaign I'd want to either run or play in.

 

[Sir Elton]

IMHO thinking of the pcs in terms like protagonist and supporting character will ultimately lead to spotlighting, which is never fun for everyone outside the spotlight.

Do you have a copy of Dragon #293?

In that issue, Robin D. Laws gave some advice on making up a campaign using American T.V. structure. In fact, I made up several campaigns using this structure, heres one.
==================================================
Debut Premise
Ensemble After the Bone Church incident, Soulcleave is knighted and he and Xenia leave Argolis when a highwayman jumps a noble woman and her retinue.
Focus: SoulClv The pair of them encounters an evil witch wielding the one power.
Focus: Xenia Xenia’s sister at the Adamite colony scores a junior position as a paladin of her Adamite community as ghouls stalk the countryside.
Ensemble A town is being terrorized by a giant Cyclops who is allied with the priests of Hera.
Continuity The pair are asked to broker some diplomacy with the Hard Head orc tribe as they asked for amnesty and citizenship, however some abominations that are half man half animal attack the tribe.
Continuity Apollo is angry with Argolis and attacks the city, causing misery. The pair is asked to find out the cause.
Focus: SoulClv Soulcleave’s loyalties to his Church and Argolis are tested as the Argives storm the stronghold of the Knights of Torm.
Ensemble A medusa is terrorizing the city of Aulis.
Continuity A Circus woman under a terrible curse seeks to take Soulcleave’s life.
Focus: Xenia Xenia finds an abandoned stronghold that was held by her uncle, but discovers that the castle is now held by Githyanki.
Ensemble A group of Ares worshipers have poisoned the sacred wine in the outpost of Vesta, and the PCs must foil their foul plot.
Continuity The pair traces a series of murders in Cimmerian Country to Laman, a Cimmerian who claims to be a Dreadlord.
Continuity A psychic creature sent by Laman tries to assassinate another Cimmerian king.
Ensemble A Cimmerian village is being terrorized by a nearby bugbear colony.
Continuity A group of women have discovered how to make a magic item that increases their power, the women call themselves Black Ajah.
Continuity The heroes trace a connection between the Black Ajah and Laman.
Continuity Transported to the Black Tower, the heroes discover the Asha’man.
Focus: SoulClv Soulcleave learns of the existence of a darker evil in the world, and is tested to see if he wields the One Power.
Change of Pace Soulcleave and Xenia must deal with a ranger covered in leeches.
Continuity The training of a Dedicated isn’t easy, as the heroes are sent to Sybaris to scout the situation.
Focus: Xenia Xenia finds another brother living in Sybaris, living quietly the life of a Sybarite, but then discovers that her brother has been secretly spying on the Sybarites all along.
Ensemble Several Pegasi are mysteriously disappearing from herds in Cania.
Change of Pace The heroes are asked to deliver presents to a group of disadvantaged children.
Ensemble The heroes must protect a pregnant woman from the forces of a lich who’s child she’s about to bear.
Continuity A Sybil warns that an army is coming over the sea and the city’s upstanding citizens offer the heroes the task of killing King Ovar, Lord of Sybaris.
Continuity A climatic battle that ends in a cliffhanger! The PCs go in to attack King Ovar to kill him, however before they get there Zayene transports them to his maze trapping them as a Chinese army lands on the Shores of Sybaris intent on conquering the kingdom!
==========================================
Do you notice the PC Focus episodes?

 

[3catcircus]

Gawd, I hope you're not thinking that the Force should function like the "work like magic" psionic system presented in the Psionic's Handbook and Expanded Psionic's Handbook.

To be honest, it work perfectly well as a skill-n-feat (with class) system. But it is also treated differently. You need certain feats to use and improve certain Force skills. In a way, a modification to the known mechanics (gain class skills only by classes).

Actually, no, I wasn't suggesting that - but since you bring it up, if I were to use *any* psionic system to model The Force, I'd use Shadowforce Archer's (SFA is a Spycraft campaign setting for those not familiar.) The way it works (I don't have Expanded Psionics Book, so I don't know if that is similar) is that you have to have at least 1 level in a psionic class (Psion, Physical Adept or Mentalist.) You can multi-class 2 psionic classes, but not all 3. You then are able to get psionic feats, based on how many class levels you have. Once you gain a feat, it opens up the ability to use certain psionic skills associated with that feat. You have a variable degree of success, based on the dice roll, but you also, for some (all?) psionic skills, suffer vitality point damage as a result of using the skill (I guess it is to simulate the mental/physical exhaustion that is occurring as a result of using psionics.) If psionics were real, I think that this would be how they operate.

So, in a way, the game (design) should reflect exactly that in the movie, so for those that are not Jedi or Sith, they are lesser PC to begin with? It would make for a lop-sided game where it is obvious to players that they should be either Jedi or Sith PC. Makes me wonder why is that the Jedi or the Sith is not running the Star Wars galaxy, since they have such "god-like" powers. For me, the Jedi and Sith are good at certain things, while the non-force-sensitive population are good at other things to compensate for the lack of such mystical powers.

Well - I would also restrict the ability to be a Jedi/Sith in a fair manner, such that other classes would be attractive to players. Maybe you'd have to multiclass into a Jedi/Sith character (similar to how Luke Skywalker didn't start out as a jedi, but as a moisture farmer) during the Rebellion era? Or have to give up certain other things to go to Jedi Academy (pre/post Rebellion Era)? I dunno - maybe something as arbitrary as only x% of the population have the capacity to become Jedi?

 

[Ranger REG]

AFAIC, anyone who takes the Hero (PC) classes only represent a small fraction of the population living in the Star Wars universe. Then again, I believe that coming from reading past D&D material (where adventurers only make up 2% of the setting's population).

 

[Acid_crash]

Actually, no, I wasn't suggesting that - but since you bring it up, if I were to use *any* psionic system to model The Force, I'd use Shadowforce Archer's (SFA is a Spycraft campaign setting for those not familiar.) The way it works (I don't have Expanded Psionics Book, so I don't know if that is similar) is that you have to have at least 1 level in a psionic class (Psion, Physical Adept or Mentalist.) You can multi-class 2 psionic classes, but not all 3. You then are able to get psionic feats, based on how many class levels you have. Once you gain a feat, it opens up the ability to use certain psionic skills associated with that feat. You have a variable degree of success, based on the dice roll, but you also, for some (all?) psionic skills, suffer vitality point damage as a result of using the skill (I guess it is to simulate the mental/physical exhaustion that is occurring as a result of using psionics.) If psionics were real, I think that this would be how they operate.

Isn't that how the Force and Force powers work anyway in Star Wars d20? First you have to become Force Sensitive, which anybody can take but Force using classes gain for free. Then you have to take the Feats Control, Sense, or Alter, which then give you specific Force powers as Force skills for use by the character. [In my opinion, I think anybody of any class should be able to do this and NOT have to take classes as either a Jedi or Force Adept, but that's my own opinion.] You use the Force skills and it costs vitality points to use, whether or not you succeed.

To me, both systems are almost identical, but Shadowforce Archer does have more Psychic Feats to augment their abilities, but so what. The basic system of both games are practically the same.

 

[d4]

Actually, no, I wasn't suggesting that - but since you bring it up, if I were to use *any* psionic system to model The Force, I'd use Shadowforce Archer's (SFA is a Spycraft campaign setting for those not familiar.) The way it works (I don't have Expanded Psionics Book, so I don't know if that is similar) is that you have to have at least 1 level in a psionic class (Psion, Physical Adept or Mentalist.) You can multi-class 2 psionic classes, but not all 3. You then are able to get psionic feats, based on how many class levels you have. Once you gain a feat, it opens up the ability to use certain psionic skills associated with that feat. You have a variable degree of success, based on the dice roll, but you also, for some (all?) psionic skills, suffer vitality point damage as a result of using the skill (I guess it is to simulate the mental/physical exhaustion that is occurring as a result of using psionics.) If psionics were real, I think that this would be how they operate.

as Acid Crash said, you just exactly described how the Force works in Star Wars d20. so what was your complaint about SWd20's presentation of the Force?

Well - I would also restrict the ability to be a Jedi/Sith in a fair manner, such that other classes would be attractive to players. Maybe you'd have to multiclass into a Jedi/Sith character (similar to how Luke Skywalker didn't start out as a jedi, but as a moisture farmer) during the Rebellion era?

again, that's exactly how it's handled in Star Wars d20. in the Rebellion era, no one can start out at 1st level as a Jedi. it must be multi-classed into later in the campaign. (provided the GM has given the PCs a mentor and the opportunity to learn.)

 

[robberbaron]

The only real problem I have with D&D D20 is that the franchise has become a long series of MinMax Prestige Classes loosely wrapped in a series of 'supplements'.

D20, in general, is a very good framework for a game. How you work with it is up to you.
No-one is forcing you to use the books as Gospel and any good GM will be moulding it to suit his/her ideas.
If you don't like a particular rule, and can think of a better way of doing it, do it.

D20 Star Wars is excellent, although I have had to modify some of the rules where I disagree and could think of a better way. It most certainly is very different to D&D.

D20 Modern is fine. D20 Traveller looks to have some problems, but nothing a determined GM couldn't get around. D20 Cthulhu seems to be fine as is, although we've only had a couple of sessions and only the GM has the book.

Basically, the games are what you make them. Play them, don't play them, I don't much care. Just try them before you rate them.

 

[3catcircus]

as Acid Crash said, you just exactly described how the Force works in Star Wars d20. so what was your complaint about SWd20's presentation of the Force?


again, that's exactly how it's handled in Star Wars d20. in the Rebellion era, no one can start out at 1st level as a Jedi. it must be multi-classed into later in the campaign. (provided the GM has given the PCs a mentor and the opportunity to learn.)

Hmm - I guess the d20 Star Wars game I played in was houseruled by the GM to allow 1st level Jedi - I'll have to go back and read the book on that (I never bothered to read that section of the book in great detail since I never played a Jedi character.)

As far as The Force itself - I was referring to the fact that (IIRC) RangerREG seemed to imply that The Force in Star Wars was just like psionics in in the Psionics handbooks or "magic" as he referred to it - I guess I was a little too subtle in my response to that - I should have simply stated that Star Wars uses practically the same system as Shadowforce Archer and they are not at all like the Psionics Handbook(s) systems.

 

[jasamcarl]

Hmm - I guess the d20 Star Wars game I played in was houseruled by the GM to allow 1st level Jedi - I'll have to go back and read the book on that (I never bothered to read that section of the book in great detail since I never played a Jedi character.)

As far as The Force itself - I was referring to the fact that (IIRC) RangerREG seemed to imply that The Force in Star Wars was just like psionics in in the Psionics handbooks or "magic" as he referred to it - I guess I was a little too subtle in my response to that - I should have simply stated that Star Wars uses practically the same system as Shadowforce Archer and they are not at all like the Psionics Handbook(s) systems.

The mistake was yours, not his. He was pretty clearly stating that it was YOU who would prefer a psionics like mechanic, because you insist on 'exceptional' mechanics being used to denote 'flavor'.

But as has been established, the reality the Star Wars mechanics and those of your stated ideal (Spycraft) are very similar, so your point was?