Why we love D&D but hate d20

[Psion]

All these RPGs deserve their OWN system because, like it or not, a system is never “invisible” -- it colours the campaign world itself. The above examples either need a system especially tailored for the world they present or, they once DID have a system of their own but have since prostituted themselves to use the D&D system.

I vehemently disagree, and am given to wonder if you have read or experienced any of the non-D&D d20 games enough to give them an authentic chance.

Are there limits to what a system can credibly do? Yes.

Is that boundary easily and neatly drawn at the boundary of "D&D"? No.

d20 is primarily a cinematic, class-based system. It begins to look a little rougher when you start to do things that classes can't do well (such as supers, since powers aren't learned, it feels a little rough to try to stuff them into classes, which is why M&M sheds the classes and the d20 label at the same time) or that isn't so cinematic. But even then, I have seen some good takes on less than cinematic games, like Traveller.

D&D is big swords and big spells, it is hit points being sloughed off in waves by fire, acid and lightning. It is not a system that lends itself well to science fiction, nor is it a generic system -- only worlds built on the system can truly benefit (ie. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Unearthed Arcana). A system is like its bones and will shape what the body looks/feels like. If the body happened to come first (eg. Cthulhu, Conan etc.), you can't shove D&D bones into it because they'll never "perfectly" fit. The best you can do is create a unique system especially tailored to the body.

D&D is adapted specifically for D&D, yes.

But d20 is NOT D&D. d20, for example, does not have to use HP.

For example, just TRY to stand up to waves of whithering fire from FGMP-15s in Traveller without armor. You character will be vaporized, even if you are 20th level. And this does not do Science Fiction well? I rather think it does.

It sounds to me like you are basing your judgement of preconceptions.

So, in short, "we who?"

 

[drnuncheon]

Conan? Yes, that was an originator of D&D but so was Fritz Leiber's Lankmar and that, in my opinion, was butchered by AD&D.

And can be done much better in 3e. (Elric, too.)

The D&D system is good for ultra-cinematic action. That's why I always am kind of confused by the threads looking for ways to turn it into this grim, gritty, "realistic" game. Seems to me it'd be easlier to start with something whose base assumptions weren't "small groups of highly trained people can take on armies and win".

J

 

[Chupacabra]

I can't wait for D20 GURPS and D20 RIFTS.

D20 Rifts would be like regular D20 'cept you start out at level 15 or so....

 

[MerricB]

D20 Rifts would be like regular D20 'cept you start out at level 15 or so....

Not true. In d20 Rifts, you'd roll d20 to determine your starting level.

Cheers!

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Not true. In d20 Rifts, you'd roll d20 to determine your starting level.

Cheers!

Why d20? That's no fun! How about 2d10+5?

 

[MerricB]

Why d20? That's no fun! How about 2d10+5?

Well, it is Rifts D20 we're talking about.

Though, given some of "balance" problems between various classes, perhaps d% for starting level would be more appropriate...

Cheers!

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Well, it is Rifts D20 we're talking about.

Though, given some of "balance" problems between various classes, perhaps d% for starting level would be more appropriate...

Cheers!

I'm starting to think we could just design D20 Rifts on our own

 

[Sir Elton]

Dungeons & Dragons was designed for one thing: medieval swords and sorcery.

It was never the “perfect” system. Back in it’s heyday it was full of mistakes but, in its crusty imperfection, it was released in the right place at the right time to become a classic.

Now we have a new edition which is much cleaner (but still favours power gaming -- levels, experience points, combat focus, etc.) and the Open Game License (OGL). The OGL has spawned many strange RPGs using the D&D system. We have:

D&D Stargate
D&D Buffy
D&D Traveller
D&D Cthulhu
D&D Deadlands
D&D Conan

. . . and the list goes on.

Interesting how all of the people can't be pleased all of the time, isn't it? Mostly, I don't care how I roleplay it as long as I can role play. Dungeons and Dragons is swords & sorcery, but the D20 System doesn't have to be.

D20 Cthulhu is the perfect example. Character creation is so elegant in that game that you wonder if it is D&D Cthulhu at all. No classes, just what your character is and his skills and feats that define him. Because of that fact, I tend to hold any D20 Modern game to that higher standard. That's why I don't like Spycraft when people apply it to other modern genres.

D20 Modern seems to be inbetween both games, and I prefer it for publishing stuff based in the modern era because of this. Spycraft doesn't hold any water for me.

If you aren't impressed with the D20 System at all, then why play it or discuss it here? There are many other boards where you can wear your Hat of d20 and get more supporters.

 

[Henry]

JUst out of my curiosity, dead, what do you think of the GURPS adaptations, like GURPS Conan, GURPS Traveller, or GURPS Riverworld?

Dungeons & Dragons was designed for one thing: medieval swords and sorcery.

Which version? Because to me, the 3E version is ideal for pseudo-medieval Swords & Sorcery, but also for Steampunk, Magitech, and most any cinematic pre-modern genre there is.

It was never the “perfect” system. Back in it’s heyday it was full of mistakes but, in its crusty imperfection, it was released in the right place at the right time to become a classic.

I was just noting something about this in the Castles & Crusades thread. Those "crusty imperfections" might have been part of WHY it was so successful, not in spite of its success.

The above examples either need a system especially tailored for the world they present or, they once DID have a system of their own but have since prostituted themselves to use the D&D system.

I strongly disagree, because if the game translates perfectly, and even adds new dimensions of its own (as in the case of Call of Cthulhu d20), then how is it prostituting? CoC still has insignificant-humans-in-a-monstrous-uncaring universe at low levels, along with a more pulpy style at high levels. If it can do both styles with equal facility, I see a gain rather than a loss.

D&D... is big swords and big spells, it is hit points being sloughed off in waves by fire, acid and lightning. It is not a system that lends itself well to science fiction, nor is it a generic system -- only worlds built on the system can truly benefit (ie. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Unearthed Arcana). A system is like its bones and will shape what the body looks/feels like. If the body happened to come first (eg. Cthulhu, Conan etc.), you can't shove D&D bones into it because they'll never "perfectly" fit. The best you can do is create a unique system especially tailored to the body.

I don't see it as a perfect analogy. In a system like GURPS, I can see your point - each worldbook uses different advantages, skills, and powers, but applied the exact same way. But d20, if you look at the actual d20-using systems available, changes almost its entire framework from game to game. Where some have classes and feats, others have skills and levels; some have all of the above, and some look very different. When released, the Castles & Crusades system for example won't even use skills and feats! Over half of its framework according to playtesters will be brand new - in an attempt to return to an earlier style of AD&D. (The wheel came full circle for that one.)

Mutants and Masterminds uses no hit points, nor classes. Arcana Unearthed uses no alignments, and turns the spell-casting on its ear. Each system turns the conventions of d20 to its own advantage; it IS like having a system built for the setting each time.

 

[Sir Elton]

Mutants and Masterminds uses no hit points, nor classes. Arcana Unearthed uses no alignments, and turns the spell-casting on its ear. Each system turns the conventions of d20 to its own advantage; it IS like having a system built for the setting each time.

Listen to Henry. What he is saying is true. The d20 System was designed to be changed, altered, and radically mutated and still hold true. If you are having problems, you can change the D20 System to fit what you want.