Why We Should Work With WotC

[gamerprinter]

Look at the financials. Everything that isn't WotC and digital gaming is pulling off 4% profits, and that was during 2021, when the company was boasting about how much profits were up. Hasbro is being carried by WotC. If WotC were to collapse, that could tank the whole company on its own.

Yes, currently Hasbro is profitable only because of WotC, and WotC is profitable because of 3PP, so you could argue that 3PP is what is keeping Hasbro alive...

 

[Justice and Rule]

There is a difference between carrying the profits and the utter collapse. It would not be pretty if Hasbro lost WotC, but its not them closing the shop if they did. And again, if the stars align and Hasbro does fall, it's Bain Capital, not Paizo, that owns D&D.

You might as well talk about how Disney is going to sell Star Wars for as divorced from reality as all this is.

There have been some fairly substantial rumors that some of the Hasbro shareholders were attempting to break Wizards off so as to increase their value by being able to direclty invest in Hasbro's biggest succeeding brand. That didn't happen, but if this failure happens? Maybe it does. Wizards goes back to being an independent entity, at which point they cut management and try reversing changes to regain some of their lost brand power.

I don't know how likely it is, but it's probably the most realistic way D&D gets out of the Hasbro umbrella.

 

[raniE]

There is a difference between carrying the profits and the utter collapse. It would not be pretty if Hasbro lost WotC, but its not them closing the shop if they did. And again, if the stars align and Hasbro does fall, it's Bain Capital, not Paizo, that owns D&D.

You might as well talk about how Disney is going to sell Star Wars for as divorced from reality as all this is.

Again, you have completely forgotten where this conversation has been over the course of a few posts. One of the first things I wrote was that if Hasbro collapsed (and all it would really take for that is a rough year in general and WotC collapsing, 2021 was a great year for Hasbro, and still the only department doing really well was WotC. I think you see Hasbro as much more permanent and stable than it is) another company could come in and buy properties from it, and that Magic would be out of the question for a smaller company, but D&D wouldn't be. That doesn't mean D&D couldn't be snatched up by by a bigger company, just that Magic couldn't be.

Hasbor is also selling stuff, right now, contrary to your previous statements that they never sell anything. They're selling eOne, which they bought just a few years ago. Their foray into tv production did not go that well it seems.

 

[Jer]

There have been some fairly substantial rumors that some of the Hasbro shareholders were attempting to break Wizards off so as to increase their value by being able to direclty invest in Hasbro's biggest succeeding brand.

Not just rumors - they actually tried to get a shareholder revolt going this past summer and failed.

Hasbro Wins Proxy Battle Against Activist Investor Alta Fox

The toy giant defeated a boardroom challenge by seeing all 13 of its directors re-elected.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

They'll try again if they smell blood in the water. That's how sharks and activist investors both operate.

 

[raniE]

There have been some fairly substantial rumors that some of the Hasbro shareholders were attempting to break Wizards off so as to increase their value by being able to direclty invest in Hasbro's biggest succeeding brand. That didn't happen, but if this failure happens? Maybe it does. Wizards goes back to being an independent entity, at which point they cut management and try reversing changes to regain some of their lost brand power.

I don't know how likely it is, but it's probably the most realistic way D&D gets out of the Hasbro umbrella.

More than rumors I think, as far as I recall it was confirmed that some investors were saying they needed to break WotC off so they could grow without Hasbro dragging them down. This is likely part of Hasbro trying to counter that, "no, no, look, WotC can grow as a part of Hasbro too." Doesn't look to be working great right now.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Not just rumors - they actually tried to get a shareholder revolt going this past summer and failed.

Hasbro Wins Proxy Battle Against Activist Investor Alta Fox

The toy giant defeated a boardroom challenge by seeing all 13 of its directors re-elected.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

They'll try again if they smell blood in the water. That's how sharks and activist investors both operate.

Thank you. I had seen it mentioned in multiple places, but hadn't looked up the original articles on the topic. But if this whole strategy fails, it would seem that a huge reset might well be able to wash some of the stink off the brand. Maybe not all, but at least enough to get some people to come back.

 

[raniE]

Yes, currently Hasbro is profitable only because of WotC, and WotC is profitable because of 3PP, so you could argue that 3PP is what is keeping Hasbro alive...

Nah, WotC is profitable because of Magic the Gathering. D&D is certainly far bigger now in comparison to Magic than it was back in 1999 or 2012, but Magic is still the main moneymaker for WotC and therefore Hasbro.

 

[Imaro]

Yes, and not just kept people playing but brought more people in and then kept them trapped in the D&D/D20 ecosystem. That was the whole plan. By allowing other companies to use the core rules, you make them support your product. This gives you a lot more content without having to pay for it. That content was always going to sell less than the core books and would essentially be marketing for the core books, especially the PHB.

That was the plan... I just don't buy that the plan worked as it was supposed to given that the vast majority of D&D players don't buy anything for the game beyond a PHB... if thats the case then it seems what small amount of players are retained or brought in by 3pp support is dwarfed by the WotC official tools and marketing machine.

But people were adapting D&D to different genres and settings before the OGL ever existed and even then D&D was the 800lb gorilla... so what was actually gained?

Without the OGL, if you want to play something other than the standard D&D experience, and you don't feel like adapting D&D to do it on your own, you need to go out and find a different game. That will lead you to discover that there are all kinds of different games, that most of them are cheaper than D&D and thus move you out of the D&D bubble. When you introduce someone new to RPGs, you're then likely to use one of those different games, maybe one that suits that person's sensibilities better.

But this wasn't the reality before the OGL was created... people did feel adapt D&D and it was the 800lb gorilla of ttrpg's

If you feel like going back to play some "standard fantasy" are you going to go to D&D? Or are you perhaps going RuneQuest, Magic World, Mythras, GURPS Fantasy, Fantasy HERO, The Fantasy Trip, Dragonbane, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Forbidden Lands, Savage Worlds etc?

D&D... when was there ever, before the OGL, a mass exodus to other fantasy games?

With the OGL on the other hand, you don't have to go out and learn a new system to play something different. You can just pick up a third party product and so stay in the D&D/D20 bubble. When you introduce someone new to RPGs you're then going to be introducing them to D&D/D20. When/if you feel like going back to "standard fantasy" you're going to go and play some D&D.

Sooo... it made something already being done easier... I can accept that.

So yeah, having all that third party support is absolutely what has let D&D dominate. Lose it and it is going to lose market share.

It was dominating before that...

 

[gamerprinter]

Nah, WotC is profitable because of Magic the Gathering. D&D is certainly far bigger now in comparison to Magic than it was back in 1999 or 2012, but Magic is still the main moneymaker for WotC and therefore Hasbro.

True. I always forget MtG, since I haven't played that in 5 years, I don't even think about it anymore...

 

[Clint_L]

So you actually believe its the small press, niche products that are keepingng the majority of people playing D&D as opposed to the name brand, the suite of electronic tools no other publisher comes close to providing, the high production values of their (comparatively inexpensive books due to scale) and marketing no other ttrpg comes close to providing?

This is a bit of a chicken and egg argument. I think the recent wave of popularity for D&D is mostly rooted in demographics, as the first big D&D cohort from the 1980/90s reached an age to come back to the game, either themselves or by buying it for their teenaged kid. Some of those same 80/90s kids are also prominent in the entertainment business now, and bring their formative influences with them. I think both WotC and 3PP for D&D have equally benefitted from this, as well as from the rise of YouTube and live play culture. Then there was the pandemic, which created a lot of extra cash on hand.

There are a lot of intersecting reasons why D&D exploded in recent years, and I think any argument that tries to reduce it to "high production values" or a plethora of 3PP or whatever is only telling a small part of the story.

I think that Hasbro could not have picked a worse moment to pick this fight. D&D is probably on the wane, and they've got various plans in motion to try to stem that and build on the brand. Instead they have shot themselves in both feet. It's astounding to witness.