Why Worldbuilding is Bad

Mallus said:
And Harrison's suggesting that this constitutes 'going off the track'.

I know what he is suggesting. But no matter how many times he or anyone else suggests it, I don't have to agree with it.

It's not how much Tolkien crams into LotR, it's 'what'. To some readers LotR is effectively barren.

That's not especially telling.

They don't care about Middle Earth's history, hobbit customs, the genealogy of the Kings of Gondor and the fall of the Men of the West. To quote the immortal Morrissey 'It says nothing to me about my life."

'The Great Gatsby' says nothing to me about my life, whereas The Lord of the Rings hits me where I live, sometimes painfully, and sometimes with great joy. But I don't care about fantasies about life in rural aristocratic New York in the 1920's, fashion, cocktails, and such because there isn't a single character in the whole novel I can remotely relate to and there isn't a thing that they do that seems to have any sense to it outside of the context of this novel. It means something particular to somebody sometime back when it was written, and I suspect some people are caught up in the illusionism of it, imagining that they now 'know something' about life in the 1920's, but its barren to me.

Of course, maybe this is my fault. Maybe if I'd paid more attention in class, had a better teacher, done some research on the story, or thought more on the words, I'd uncover the gnostic knowledge required to unlock the works secrets. This is certainly possible, as I'm often inclined to say the same thing to people who find LotR's to be devoid of any meaning beyond fanciful histories and 'hobbit toast buttering songs', as if the whole of the work was merely its fantastic secondary creation. So, maybe it is me. But that's really neither here nor there. The point is that I get LotR with the knowledge that I have and the experiences that I have, and well, I could care less for Gatsby because I don't. It's required reading, they say. I hope, they enjoy it.

A personal example. My lovely wife tore through In Search of Lost Time a few years back. Something a lazy reader wouldn't do. Proust's salon culture is fairly far removed from the gun-crazy City of Brotherly Love we live in, but nevertheless, she could relate to it. She's tried reading LotR several times, but couldn't get through it. The enterprise that Tolkien excels at is meaningless to her. Middle Earth is meaningless to her.

Some month I have time to waste, I'll have to force myself to plow through Proust. Or maybe not.

But Joyce's stories in The Dead, particularly "The Dead", are amazing. The last paragraph of "The Dead" is worth more to me that all of LotR. It says more. To me, personally, and all...

And to me, personally, I get more out of one paragraph in 'Shadow from the Past' or 'The Pass of Cirith Ungol', than I get from the whole story which effects you so. Not that I can't see that there might be something from someone to hold dear in it, but its just not for me whatever it is.

Which of course is silly. Critics of Baywatch weren't merely peeved that more people weren't watching PBS.

I'm not so sure of that, but I couldn't say strongly one way or the other - having never watched Baywatch any more than I've read Mr. Harrison.

To make a point. Which was apparently missed by a lot of people who got their dander up because they found Harrison to be insulted books that they liked, and refused to recognize that his statement's obviously weren't intended as universal.

Once again, they quite obviously were. I don't know anything about the private intentions of the author beyond what is in the text. But the words he wrote were obviously quite strongly universal.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Celebrim said:
'The Great Gatsby' says nothing to me about my life, whereas The Lord of the Rings hits me where I live, sometimes painfully, and sometimes with great joy. But I don't care about fantasies about life in rural aristocratic New York in the 1920's, fashion, cocktails, and such because there isn't a single character in the whole novel I can remotely relate to and there isn't a thing that they do that seems to have any sense to it outside of the context of this novel. It means something particular to somebody sometime back when it was written, and I suspect some people are caught up in the illusionism of it, imagining that they now 'know something' about life in the 1920's, but its barren to me.
Really? I always thought one of the great strengths of The Great Gatsby was how relatable the characters were. The narrator is someone I can relate to as a somewhat bemused observer who gets caught up in the whole thing, Gatsby himself is a very sympathetic character as someone who can't let go of his unrequited love, and goes too far trying to pursue it. Even what's their faces--the woman he likes and her husband--remind me all too well of people I know; the entitled and self-serving way that they casually dismantle Gatsby's dreams and even his life, and then try to go on pretending that nothing happened. I mean, I'm not saying I relate to them, but I certainly know people like that.

The Great Gatsby is great human drama. That's why it's been so loved all these years.
 

buzz said:
Vincent Baker gives a great example on his blog about how a GM he knew was able to create amazing detail and verisimilitude, on the fly, without lots of pre-game work.

That's very cool, and what I aspire toward. Most of my adventures are planes-spanning with maybe a paragraph description of the locale they're visiting for that adventure. I don't have to know the details of the place, because as long as it keeps its feel, then I get my verisimilitude. This is the same concept I use with NPCs. I give them some goals and some personality then work with those things when actually playing. I guess I treat setting as a really big NPC. ;)

Pbartender said:
Ooo. I like that. It reminds me of Burning Wheel's Instincts and Beliefs, something which I've been having my D20 players use instead of character histories and personality profiles, but applied to an entire country/culture/civilization/organization. I really like that.

I've often found that histories to little for actually aiding roleplaying (they're good for plothooks, though). Detailed histories rarely have a moment to moment impact on the PCs actions, but something like this intrigues me.
 

buzz said:
Dude, you were paying attention when I ran that BW demo at Gameday? SWEET! :D

;)

Damn straight, I was.

And the whole Beliefs and Instincts spiel was one of the best things I've ever brought home from a gameday. For my latest D20 (Iron Heroes) game, I limited my players' character write-ups to: 7 adjectives that describe the character, 3 beliefs, 3 instincts, a physical description in 250 words or less, and a personal history in 250 words or less. It worked wonderfully. Plenty there to give roleplayng guidance for characters, but not so much that roleplaying gets bogged down in tons of details that eventually get forgotten about and ignored.

Now, I think I'd do well to apply the same concept to my campaign setting... It'd suit my world-building style quite well, I think.
 
Last edited:

Kamikaze Midget said:
One of the skills of a "good" DM is improvisation, though. Certainly you don't expect everything your players do to be pre-planned, is there a reason we should have all parts of our world pre-planned?

Kamikaze Midget said:
QFMFT. Advice has continually been "create only as needed." I totally believe that D&D needs to create more than a novel, but I'm not sure it needs to create all that much more.
While I agree with this to some extent, I believe that worldbuilding is more than just "what's in the next hex" or "who is the blacksmith and what are his motivations.".

There are many things that exist within the immediate world of the PCs that are not readily quantifiable or easily improvised without some preliminary planning. Things like:

1. Gods and Pantheons (and how prevalent is worship, faith, etc)
2. Societal customs (class or caste, slavery, gender roles, etc)
3. Technologies (how does magic, tech play a part in the world, what affect do they have on things)
4. Government and Economics (political systems, alliances, primary commodities, etc)

And while these things don't need bone-grinding detail, I would think that any PC would know the basics of these things inherently and therefore know how to react in certain circumstances. Even if a world-primer or gazetteer is not handed out, the DM should know these things so that the world has some depth, and at least be able to discuss them without pause or rolling dice to decide how it works.

CC
 


catsclaw227 said:
There are many things that exist within the immediate world of the PCs that are not readily quantifiable or easily improvised without some preliminary planning.
The (predictable) response is that the players can make up deities and cultures their characters worship, thereby adding to the game-world and saving the referee the trouble of making them herself, that technologies can be made up on the fly as needed, and that unless you are planning to run a game in which the characters are going to be trading extensively, things like local commodities and caravan routes only need to be detailed if they directly impact the adventure, in which case they can be added as needed.

Two thoughts:

1. Several posters have complained that the quote in the original post is being taken "too literally," and offering various explanations for what the author really meant. That may be (but by no means assuredly is) true, but consider for a moment that the quote is offered in support of the thesis, "Why worldbuilding is bad."

Taken by itself, the quote can be interpreted a couple of ways, rather like the JRRT quote I offered upthread. However, the OP doesn't attempt to make that fine a point of it: worldbuilding is bad, and here's a quote from a science fiction author that supports my premise. It's not hard to see understand the more severe interpretation applied to it, since that's exactly the way the OP intended it to be interpreted.

2. Some science fiction roleplaying games include mechanics for world-generation - examples include Burning Empires and Traveller.

In the case of Traveller, the rules include mechanics for generating a "universal world profile," or UWP, that includes the following: starport type, planet size, atmosphere composition, hydrographic cover, population, government, law level, and tech level, plus trade codes and the presence of gas giants and military bases. The UWP focuses on information that the players and their characters need to know: can I get fuel for my starship? can I breathe the air? how many people live there? can I carry a fusion gun and a tac missle around startown? how bribable are the bureaucrats? can I buy an air/raft here? will I get a good price on my trade goods?

In my experience it is possible to run a perfectly satisfying Traveller game using nothing more than the UWP data and some improvisation. Do the players care why an atmosphere is tainted or not, or do they just want to know if they need filter masks or not? Does the title of the charismatic dictator who is the head of government for the world really matter if the only government representatives the players are likely to encounter is the starport staff and the local law enforcement? And no matter her title, isn't a cop a cop for that matter? If the question comes up, it's possible for a Traveller referee to come up with an answer on the fly, or with only a minimum of planning, because the UWP answers a great many of the players' most likely questions straight out of the gate, leaving the referee to focus on the adventure instead of background that isn't directly relevant to the characters.

Traveller also provides additional rules to assist the referee with building upon the UWP to create entire star systems in remarkable detail. From the primary star's mass, temperature, age, and luminosity to the mainworld's orbit, climate, density, escape velocity, natural resources and manufactured gods, population distribution, and political institutions to all of the system's companion stars, outworlds and satellites.

I am co-refereeing a Traveller game right now, and I spent the time to detail out eighteen different systems, soup to nuts, before we began play. What I found is that the additional detail provides me with much more inspiration for challenges to present the players and their characters, more bolts for my quiver (or missles for my magazine, if you like) than just relying on the UWP and the inspiration of the moment. The time spent on world-building (or star cluster-building, in this case) revealed facets about the setting to me that would not be readily available from just the UWP or supporting tables in the basic rules - for example, for most of the systems the time spent travelling from the jump point to the starport is of a longer duration than the basic rules infeer, meaning there are more opportunities for encounters in space along the way than might be expected using just the simple flight time chart. I am also able to provide the players with more meaningful informationwithout relying on the referee(s) because so much is available to them for the asking.

This is particularly important given that there is no "adventure" per se in this game - all of the encounters, patrons, and so forth are generated randomly using the tables in the rules or supplements. There is a strongly improvisational element in this game, and the setting details go a long way toward making that work by providing a stage on which those random encounters play out.

Will I use everything I wrote for each system? No, not by a long shot - then again, since I have only a vague idea what the crew will do before they do it, I don't know exactly what information I will need either, so by giving myself a leg up on the setting details, I find it much easier to adjudicate the results of their choices. I don't consider any of that effort "wasted," since I learned more about the setting than I originally conceived through the process of building.

I think that the referee or dungeon master or storyteller should work with their strengths, and where improvisation works for some, more detailed planning works for others. If the end result is a satisfying game, then that's what matters. With that in mind, I completely reject the thesis that "worldbuilding is badwrongfun."
 


Pbartender said:
Damn straight, I was.

And the whole Beliefs and Instincts spiel was one of the best things I've ever brought home from a gameday. For my latest D20 (Iron Heroes) game, I limited my players' character write-ups to: 7 adjectives that describe the character, 3 beliefs, 3 instincts, a physical description in 250 words or less, and a personal history in 250 words or less. It worked wonderfully. Plenty there to give roleplayng guidance for characters, but not so much that roleplaying gets bogged down in tons of details that eventually get forgotten about and ignored.

Now, I think I'd do well to apply the same concept to my campaign setting... It'd suit my world-building style quite well, I think.
That's crazy sexy cool, Pb. :cool: It's exactly what I've been toying with for my next campaign. I'm really happy to see you take something away from the event.
 

Remove ads

Top