Why Worldbuilding is Bad

The short answer is no. You weren't wrong. You were right. You evidently did not want to play with players being full dragons (though, somewhat surprisingly, you were fine with them being half-dragons), so you said no. I have said time and again that the DM is one of the players, is part of the gaming group, and that your enjoyment of the game is just as important as anyone else's.

But the longer answer is that, despite being right, you're now without a game, so what was the cost of being right? Being a gamer means you have a relationship with your fellow players. It's not like a quick board game or card game where you can drop in at the table, play for a few minutes, and then skip out. What distinguishes D&D (and RPGs in general) from other kinds of games is the long, drawn-out interaction with other people.

I can't say I disagree with that. It's a fine line DMs have to walk when creating a shared experience. I think the original poster probably could have met his players half-way on this issue (prehaps the half-dragon was his concession?). Sometimes, though, you have to go with your gut.

Thanks for posting this. It made me think.

Originally Posted by Hussar
In other news...

It looks like the folks at WOTC may have been eavesdropping on this thread. Check out the latest Save my game
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Kamikaze Midget said:
Well, I did neglect to mention that, but, really, I didn't care much about what happened to all those fantasy critters anyway. I didn't care about the world. I cared about the characters (and only some of them).

But that isn't a failure of storytelling vis a vis worldbuilding. The fact that you didn't (at the time you read it when your age was counted in single digits) seem to understand part of the story, or simply didn't care for some of the characters doesn't mean that their presence in the narrative is worldbuilding. It means that you didn't like their part of the plot. Because their story was critically important to the story of LotR - in many ways I'd suggest that the failing of elves, ents, dwarves and the rest of the "old world" was the real story of LotR - the hobbits heading off to Mount Doom was just window dressing for that.
 

Because their story was critically important to the story of LotR - in many ways I'd suggest that the failing of elves, ents, dwarves and the rest of the "old world" was the real story of LotR - the hobbits heading off to Mount Doom was just window dressing for that.
In the same way that the LOTR is really all about Gollum. No, wait, it's all about Aragorn...and Saruman. That works too. Officially it's about Sauron, thus the title...even though we never even see him.

Hold on...this sounds like the kind of nonsensical rhetorical thinking that arts academics indulge in. Tolkien didn't invent the Villain and the McGuffin - their places in the story are well established. The story is not about them except in the crosseyed sense that the story is also all about a whole bunch of arbitrary other inanimate objects, characters and concepts as well.

You can spin it however you want, but the LOTR is about the Fellowship of the Ring and their journey. For our purposes, if it were a D&D game, that's what it'd be about, because all the adventures would be made with them in mind. Frodo & Co is where the rubber of the narrative meets the road, and pretending otherwise is academically fashionable, but mostly useless.

Speaking of Tolkien, isn't the Silmarillion mostly an exercise in worldbuilding, and a book often "abandoned in disgust"? And didn't the movies suffer very little by jettisoning most of the worldbuilding stuff both narrated by characters and pursued in asides, and perhaps even improve on the book? I thought so - The Twin Towers I found a dull book which dragged, whereas the movie propelled the plot forward by eschewing worldbuilding ephemera.
 
Last edited:

rounser said:
Speaking of Tolkien, isn't the Silmarillion mostly an exercise in worldbuilding, and a book often "abandoned in disgust"? And didn't the movies suffer very little by jettisoning most of the worldbuilding stuff both narrated by characters and pursued in asides, and perhaps even improve on the book? I thought so - The Twin Towers I found a dull book which dragged, whereas the movie propelled the plot forward by eschewing worldbuilding ephemera.


The Silmarilion as presented was never intended by Tolkein for publication.

The movies didn't eschew worldbuilding; they eschewed a large part of the plot and made questionable changes to the plot. And, yes, the films are far weaker (though require less attention span) than the books.


RC
 

And, yes, the films are far weaker (though require less attention span) than the books.
Not what I meant - IMO the movies are a lot stronger in terms of telling a story than the books. They have to be; they have very limited time to get to the point. D&D lies somewhere in the middle, but I'd err towards the movie philosophy as the more wise of the two approaches, unless you're running a Worldbuilding Appreciation Society under the guise of a D&D game.

Last time I checked, the books keep getting diverted into songs and asides about the past out of the mouths of the characters, which occasionally add to atmosphere, but mostly at the expense of advancing the story (resulting in the drag referred to above). Tolkien may be a sacred cow, but he's quite self indulgent a world builder in this respect IMO...the cuts that Jackson made flattered his work, giving it the good editor it so desperately needed to keep the story from stalling on a regular basis.
 

Apropos of nothing; since I'm several days behind in reading this thread and don't even intend to catch up--worldbuilding can often lead to unanticipated plot points. Here's an example from my own campaign:

The thing in question started as merely an aesthetic. There was a book I got from my local public library when I was a kid about space--on each page, the left hand side had a bit of white space at the top and a title, then a block of text; the right hand side was a color plate painted by the artist of the book. It was really a fabulous book that I'd love to find if I could remember the title or author either one. In any case, there was one picture near the end that showed a peaceful little idyllic landscape at night--little huts off in the distance nestled under some gentle hills with lights in their windows. The landscape itself was the less than the bottom 1/4 of the picture. The sky filled the rest, and it was a blue night sky with the gigantic whirlpool of a spiral galaxy filling the picture. The premise was that this was some star just outside the Milky Way galaxy and you could see it at night filling the sky. Brilliant, I thought! So I wanted a similar set-up.

Because my setting isn't strictly fantasy but more of a Weird Tale; i.e. undifferentiated between fantasy, horror and science fiction elements, I actually wanted the astronomy to be reasonably correct. My first thought was to set the setting on a planet somewhere in the Large Magellanic Cloud--but I decided that I'm not 100% sure that I'd actually get the view I want from there. I'm also not 100% that the Milky Way has the look I want after all; more recent studies than that which informed the painting in the book have the Milky Way as a barred spiral galaxy with a starburst ring just beyond the bar. I googled up some Hubble telescope images of similar galaxies and wasn't 100% satisfied.

See where I'm going so far? Pretty nerdy worldbuilding stuff so far; no doubt quite beyond the pale of where the OP advises me to spend my time. In any case; moving on--while googling up those images, I decided I wanted to rotate my computer wallpapers out with pictures of galaxies, and several immediately caught my eye as beautiful, and exactly what I wanted. M64--"the Black Eye" galaxy for instance, or NGC 4414 or NGC 3370. So I decided to not worry about making this the Milky Way and just set it somewhere else. "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away". How long ago, and how far away? Well that depends on what galaxy I pick. If I pick M64, that's something like 12 light years away, so that's how far. It's also how long--12 million years. I want the galaxy to look like it does now so if I ever decide to whip up some artwork I can just Photoshop the Hubble image in.

How does all this drive story? Well, my original intention was to combine this idea with Noah's Ark--humanity had fled Earth during the Flood and arrived in the LMC. They had not escaped God's notice, though--and since they were not Noah or his family, they shouldn't have been immune from the effects of the Flood. So God sent a comet or two winging towards their planet to destroy it's ecosystem and make it uninhabitable. The local gods rose up to protect the planet, but since they were individually much weaker, they could only blunt the effects. Some water vapor remained on the planet, mostly in underground aquifers, and the atmosphere wasn't blown away after all. The planet became a harsh, cold desert, but not completely uninhabitable. This explains the local cultures' religions which demonize the giant galaxy in the sky and fear it, among other things.

However, that wouldn't work if I now was putting it somewhere else and setting it much earlier. However another astronomical problem presented itself to me--for other reasons, I want the star that the world circles to be an old, faint and weak one; an ancient orange dwarf. These types of stars are the kind that might be found on the fringes of a galaxy--in the halo or in the ancient globular clusters, for example, and they are somewhat like 12-14 billion years old; nearly as old as the Universe itself. However, they formed so long ago that litle stellar processing of the raw hydrogen that made up the primeval universe had yet happened. The concept of their being enough heavy elements and dust to form terrestrial planets is unlikely.

So now, I've got a bit of a problem that my "nerdy" obsession with world-building and making it astronomically plausible have concocted are suggesting all kinds of really cool ideas to me.
  • What's this star doing out here in the middle of intergalactic space in the first place? Not so hard; I can posit a galactic collision or near miss, or some other gravitational slingshotting effect, and I certainly have enough time since the formation of the star to reasonably make it far enough away from the galaxy that it's now visible in it's entirety in the night sky. Especially if this was originally a halo star in the first place.

  • If it's so implausable for there to be terrestrial planets around a star like this, what's one doing here? It's artificial. It was placed here by some other agent.

  • Who the heck would do that and why? Who else? Gray aliens. As for why; some of the reasoning is their own inscrutiable motives, but I do like the concept of a Noah's Ark of sorts--humans have been originally placed here to protect them from some cataclysm.

  • If this is "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" how do you have humans that are genetically identical (albeit of completely alien ethnic groups) to humans on earth? Again with the gray aliens. The idea that we aren't the product of local evolution after all but instead of the tampering of some extraterrestrial entity is a compelling idea and one that's been floating around in my head as a great conspiracy theory type plot point ever since I heard of Van Danniken's Chariots of the Gods in the first place.

  • What is the nature of this cataclysm their escaping and what does that have to do with anything? The cataclysm was not merely a natural disaster of some kind; it was a malicious entity who wanted to destroy humanity. And despite the hiding of a remnant of humanity far from the galaxy in a place where it's much harder to find than the proverbial needle in a haystack, this malicious entity has somehow found them again.

So there we go--a high level, campaign finishing plot point has occured to me that wouldn't have if I didn't take the time to engage in some seemingly pointless worldbuilding. From having a campaign without any defined goals or overarching purpose in mind, I'm now angling towards preparing my PCs to essentially deal with my own version of Galactus at high level when the campaign is ready for it's ultimate climax and end.
 
Last edited:

rounser said:
Not what I meant - IMO the movies are a lot stronger in terms of telling a story than the books.

I understand. IMO, they are not.

Simply because they have limited time to get to the point doesn't mean that it does a better (or stronger) job telling a story.

IMO...the cuts that Jackson made flattered his work, giving it the good editor it so desperately needed to keep the story from stalling on a regular basis.

And, IMO, not.


RC
 

Because their story was critically important to the story of LotR - in many ways I'd suggest that the failing of elves, ents, dwarves and the rest of the "old world" was the real story of LotR - the hobbits heading off to Mount Doom was just window dressing for that.

Here's the thing, though. A story has characters. An "age" isn't a character. It's a setting. Unless you blow the setting up to the relevance of a character (thus blowing it out of proportion to the human element), nothing should be "about" the setting. The elements of a story always involve a person: a person vs. god, a person vs. nature, a person vs. themselves, a person vs. a person. You could maybe try to tell a story about an age through allegory, but allegory frequently results in shallow characters.

If the story of LotR involves basically no actual characters, that is a severe weakness of the book and a deep criticism of JRR's writing.

Perhaps I give the man too much credit, but I'm willing to believe that the story of LotR is about the Fellowship and, specifically, about how a pair of hobbits walked from the Shire to Mount Doom (encountering all sorts of fantastic places along the way) in order to save the world from an evil that would make its wielder all powerful. It's about humility over hubris, about the triumph of willpower over temptation, and about, ultimately, how all evil destroys itself, how greed is turned back on the greedy, and how a lust for something as empty and soulless as power ultimately robs all life from you, but a friendship, a fellowship, and a companionship, can give you the power to take on anything.

That is, I think, why the story has endured and garnered such popularity, is the strength of that core story. It has persisted *despite* JRR's frequent skipping down obscure-self-referential-lore lane because there is only a small segment of the audience (the great clomping nerd segment. ;)) that is interested in that. It persists because he tells a very human story about the struggle of two friends in the face of overwhelming terror. Not because he chats about elf poetry.

And, IMO, not.

Right. And RC, it strikes me that you're probably one of those who very much enjoys the worldbuilding. And you don't really seem to have any problems with your preference in your groups, so the advice probably isn't very relevant to you, personally. Worldbuilding is part of your fun, and it doesn't interfere with the rest of your group's fun, so no biggie.

But ronseur rather persuasively demonstrates that this passion for worldbuilding isn't always a good thing and, depending upon your group, could seriously bog down what is fun for them in what is only fun for the DM. So, despite the fact that the advice to have story triumph over world building isn't really relevant for you, it could certainly be good advice. It was given in writing, presumably, because in this professional's experience, like in ronseur's (and others who have posted in support of the idea), the general audience doesn't care about world details that aren't directly relevant to the action of the story.

A D&D campaign doesn't get the same exposure as a published book, however. It basically just needs to amuse the people who come to the weekly game (DM included), and so if all those people love to geek out on fantasy worldbuilding, the campaign is accomplishing it's goal of amusing a few people for an evening. Also, if you have no particular story in mind, tinkering around with the setting can sometimes help you see where a story can exist. And because PC's have more freedom than readers, it behooves a DM to prepare more than he will really need, in order to anticipate unexpected moves by the players. Which is why you will need more pointless world-building in a D&D game than in a published book, even if you don't particularly want to do much of it. Generally, the alternative is to poach liberally from published settings in such a circumstance.
 
Last edited:

Kamikaze Midget said:
Right. And RC, it strikes me that you're probably one of those who very much enjoys the worldbuilding. And you don't really seem to have any problems with your preference in your groups, so the advice probably isn't very relevant to you, personally. Worldbuilding is part of your fun, and it doesn't interfere with the rest of your group's fun, so no biggie.


No...it actively enhances the rest of my group's fun. Dropping it would be a biggie.

And, I have already agreed that worldbuilding can be used poorly. I even gave some examples. However, 90% or more of the "worldbuilding" problems brought up on this thread are either DM or player problems, and are as prevalent without worldbuilding as they are with.


RC
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
That is, I think, why the story has endured and garnered such popularity, is the strength of that core story. It has persisted *despite* JRR's frequent skipping down obscure-self-referential-lore lane because there is only a small segment of the audience (the great clomping nerd segment. ;)) that is interested in that. It persists because he tells a very human story about the struggle of two friends in the face of overwhelming terror. Not because he chats about elf poetry.


Of course, the fact that the vast majority of critics and posters who like LotR all tell you that it is because of these properties rather than despite them has no influence on your thinking, right? :confused:

(Not that your characterization of the qualities of LotR is remotely accurate.)
 

Remove ads

Top