Why Worldbuilding is Bad

[Imaro]

"Good GMs" are in limited supply - I think Ryan Dancey pointed that out at some stage. I'd consider the majority of Dungeon adventures writers are probably "good GMs", but the amount of stuff that ends up in the DM's Background that the players can never discover has become a Dungeon magazine cliche. The glaring fault here is that the DM knows the background, but no mechanism is in the adventure for the PCs to discover it. To the PCs the setup for the adventure all seems totally arbitrary and inscrutable - in any media other than D&D this would be a death kiss, unless you're writing for the X-Files. And that's just designing adventures! Setting bibles aren't even on the map, and the "inscrutable background that the players will never discover" mistake's already being made! No wonder Wolfgang had it as his first rule.

How do you figure the players can "never" discover this stuff. Once again it's on your skill as a DM, how much of this is worked into an adventure, or future adventures. The beginning of these adventures are arbitrary because they have to be intentionally vague to suit various campaign settings...however that complaint is alleviated when there is context and history behind and adventure that fits into a greater whole. The "inscrutable" background is only a "mistake" if you as a DM either choose to or are not imaginative enough to make it a significant portion of your adventure(s).

Especially when what they're saying doesn't suit your argument. Yes, I understand.

Nah, I just ain't big on hero worship, and believe nobody is infallible. Plenty of game designers have said things and years later said the total opposite...it's human nature.

 

[Raven Crowking]

And what's useful? Something that supports an adventure!

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that what is useful is something that supports game play....whether that game play consists of an "adventure" per se, or anything else enjoyed by the players while playing?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Nah, I just ain't big on hero worship, and believe nobody is infallible.

True, but when different people who all know their craft tell you the same thing over and over again...

"You should only use your right foot to press the pedals when driving" says your father.
"You should only use your right foot to press the pedals when driving" says your mother.
"You should only use your right foot to press the pedals when driving" says your instructor.
"That's fine for you novices, but I'm going to use BOTH feet because it gives me more control!"

I mean, cool that you can drive with both feet, but that doesn't mean it's better.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Here's a hint: if it's in a module, it's probably part of the adventure.

Does this include the nobility of Sasserine? Does this include the DM background that players can never discover (something I'm not familiar with, btw; whyever couldn't the players discover it?)?

 

[Raven Crowking]

True, but when different people who all know their craft tell you the same thing over and over again...

"You should only use your right foot to press the pedals when driving" says your father.
"You should only use your right foot to press the pedals when driving" says your mother.
"You should only use your right foot to press the pedals when driving" says your instructor.
"That's fine for you novices, but I'm going to use BOTH feet because it gives me more control!"

I mean, cool that you can drive with both feet, but that doesn't mean it's better.

So, if I can pull up as many articles and authorities who say the opposite (and I can), that will make it true?

Color me confused.

 

[rounser]

The "inscrutable" background is only a "mistake" if you as a DM either choose to or are not imaginative enough to make it a significant portion of your adventure(s).

Well, that mistake seems to get made a lot in published work, so what chance does your average homebrewer have who's too busy worldbuilding to pay that much attention to adventure design subtleties like this have? I hope he's a "good GM", because he's going to need to be to even spot the problem in the first place. If he's a worldbuilder, he might even be too wrapped in his own sense of verisimilitude to notice or care that it doesn't make sense from the player's perspective, because it all makes sense to him.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Well, that mistake seems to get made a lot in published work, so what chance does your average homebrewer have who's too busy worldbuilding to pay that much attention to adventure design subtleties like this have? I hope he's a "good GM", because he's going to need to be to even spot the problem in the first place. If he's a worldbuilder, he might even be too wrapped in his own sense of verisimilitude to notice or care that it doesn't make sense from the player's perspective, because it all makes sense to him.

Yeah, but maybe he's KM, who doesn't need to do any prep work on the adventure at all, but consistently does as well as you could do no matter how much prep you put into it.

 

[Imaro]

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that what is useful is something that supports game play....whether that game play consists of an "adventure" per se, or anything else enjoyed by the players while playing?

QFT!

 

[I'm A Banana]

So, if I can pull up as many articles and authorities who say the opposite (and I can), that will make it true?

Where did I say anything about truth? I just said listening to advice is important.

If you pull up articles and authorities who say the opposite, I will listen to what they have to say, because they are important. I won't let them control my thoughts, and I may disagree for my own purposes, but I'm not going to dismiss what they have to say out of hand or claim that it's somehow inferior.

So when ronseur brings up advice and Imaro rejects it out of hand, I say "Don't be so quick to dismiss it."

Color me confused.

It might go better for you if you read what I write and stop trying to assign me a position I don't take.

Yeah, but maybe he's KM, who doesn't need to do any prep work on the adventure at all, but consistently does as well as you could do no matter how much prep you put into it.

Anyone can do what I do. Thousands of actors do it daily. Other DMs who have played under me do it. DMs I have played under do it to greater or lesser degrees. I'm sure DMs I haven't met do it, too. It doesn't defy logic. It's not even particularly difficult. Like any skill, it gets better with practice. It's not for everyone, it's no more perfect than any other method, but it's more fun for me, just as pre-prep is more fun for other DMs. I don't know how anyone can accurately judge my chosen method of imagining to be an elf for four hours as badwrongfun because it doesn't mesh with their experience of imagining to be an elf for four hours.

 

[Raven Crowking]

It might go better for you if you read what I write and stop trying to assign me a position I don't take.

Or, say, if you took a course on writing.

Anyway, it now seems (in the last few posts) that you are saying that "Bad worldbuilding is bad", a statement that is tautological, fairly meaningless, and not very interesting. Is bad worldbuilding bad? Yes. No one in this thread disagrees with that one.

For articles and authorities, you can go to issues of The Dragon going back to when it was called The Dragon. I would recommend an article called "Let There Be A Method To Your Madness" that discusses consideration of what a dungeon or ruin was originally used for (and therefore what it needs to have located within it) prior to setting pen to paper.

(Of course, Hussar will then claim that this relates to setting, not worldbuilding. )

You might also consider the Dungeoncraft articles related to a prehistoric setting, which (while suggesting not building more than you have to) certainly suggests that you build up details such as what sorts of gods are in the world, how the hook of the world affects PC class/race choices, who's in charge of the settlement, and background secrets that the PCs may or may not discover through the course of play. IOW, all of those things that some in this thread believe unnecessary or a waste of time.

RC