Why would you want to play *that*??

[delericho]

As DM, I have far more tolerance for unusual classes than for unusual races. I actually like most of the new base classes WotC have produced, and the vast majority of PrCs are fine too, with a bit of tweaking to rules and/or premise. There have been some rather dumb ones, but that seems to be a tiny minority.

And, sometimes you don't want to play yet another Fighter.

Where things go wrong with races (for me) is in two areas:

1) If the race in question is not common in the world, or is common as an 'enemy race', the campaign then has to be manipulated to accomodate the character. If there is one odd character, that can be done. If there is one, however, why not more? Why can't every player have an odd race? And then the campaign doesn't make sense any more - what region is going to turn the defence of their people against the Red Hand of Doom over to a Teifling, a Half-Golem, a Vampire and a Monkey Ninja-Pirate? (Sure, it can be done, but it takes some stretching.)

2) When asked to come up with reasons why the odd character is adventuring with the rest of the party, I have yet to see a reason given beyond something like "he's the only good drow" or "he was left as an orphan, and raised by humans". That worked once, but we've had Worf and Drizzt now. These days, it doesn't make your character interesting - it makes your character a cliche.

I guess I agree somewhat with the OP. In fact, even when the races chosen are from the PHB, I often find myself wishing my players would play their elves as something more than humans with pointy ears, their dwarves as caricatures of Scotsmen (which is especially tiresome when your players are Scotsmen, believe me), and their halflings as one-dimensional kleptomaniacs.

 

[Aeolius]

So WotC releases oodles of books, and we aren't supposed to use them? Not to mention the plethora of d20 supplements provided by other companies.

In my undersea campaign, the merfolk, sea elves, and locathah are the standard races. A human fighter would... drown. I specify that a PC must be able to breathe underwater and swim. Temporary magics or those that can be dispelled are less than reliable.

Granted, DMs have the final word on what is allowed in their games. Some wish to run "Core" campaigns, while others allow "monster" races and information from additional supplements. If a DM and player have the same books, I don't see the harm. Heck, I once talked a player into running a school of fish as a PC... fine damselfish hivemind (swarm, aquatic)

A sea kin (Stormwrack) dragon shaman (PH2) makes perfect sense, to me.

 

[Raven Crowking]

IMC, you can play alot of different non-human PC types, including a lot of fey, giants, beastfolk (humanoid animals), and intelligent animals. I make it work simply; taking one of the stranger races has both bonuses and penalties within the crunch. The bonuses and penalties are intended to balance, both in terms of the character and in terms of the campaign. If your goal is a cool character, then the limitations on the crunch shouldn't bother you. If your goal is to crunch it up, then you can do that with a human type as easily as with anything else.

As far as prestige classes go, I think that this was one of the great innovations of 3.0. (Yes, I know that they existed earlier conceptually, but what a great thing to coidify for gaming/world building purposes!) A fire temple of Cuthbert could be handled by a unique prestige class rather than a new racial type...in fact, the racial type could have been simply modified into a prestige class. Same general idea; less suspension of disbelief. Using prestige paladins? Why not make them different based upon their divine patron? Most of the published prestige classes don't tie into your campaign world in a unique way, but how could they? The DM can determine campaign-specific prerequisites to make the option far more meaningful in role-playing terms.

Also, while I am sure that there are many people out there who want the strange combos because the character concepts draw them in role-playing-wise, I am equally sure that there are more people out there looking for crunch advantage. Thing is, if you get enough crunch monsters, you can lose sight of the people who are really pulled to the strange combos. Add to that the fact that most people really do "role-play" elves as pointy-eared humans, and you can (I hope) understand where the OP is coming from. I know I can.

My solution to the problem is to give game (i.e., crunch) benefits for role-playing non-humans as non-human. Or crunch penalties for failing to do so.

Example one: A humanoid cat who becomes distracted by a small mammal rustling in the bushes, and thus deserts his guard post, gains 1 Action Point if there is a consequence to his behaviour.

Example two: Elves in my campaign world are fey, not humanoids. A Glamdras elf (elf of twilight) who is a member of the Revelry of the Court of Dreams might enter Crux (a turning point with the power to kill, maim, or leave the fey changed forever) if he does any of the following: break a promise, commit an obviously evil act, change his alignment, aid a mortal who broke a promise to him, allows his cynosure (think a dryad's tree) to be damaged or destroyed, or cause a mortal to give up a worthwhile dream. Of course, he gets some nifty abilities to make up for these restrictions......(Thank you Goodman Games!)

RC

 

[The_Gneech]

"Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving!"
--Auntie Mame

 

[Henry]

I think you've setting the bar to your own expectations a bit, d_K. Some people like experimenting with the weird combos, for role-play and for gaming fun.

First of all, like a psychologist who worships Freud or Jung, I'll state that Robin Laws is GHOD. Go ye hence, and seek out Robin's Laws to good gamemastering, or the DMG II, since you'll see me natter on about it in any thread like this one.

In a current Eberron Game, two players play a Half-Dragon Monk and Ratling Ninja/Shadowdancer, respectively. Player A is a new player, but more into the roleplaying aspect than player B; Player B loves his Ratling, he loves sneaking around in shadows, imagining his character making impossible leaps from ledge to ledge, poisoning his foes, dealing nigh-invisible death as he chooses. He's a specialist; if he's not playing super-cool and stealthy guy, he's not as happy. His eyes twinkle any time he finds a new +1 to Hide and Move Silently.

Player A enjoys the death-dealing of his draconic heritage; because of level adjustments, he's not as strong as the others in melee or staying power; his special beath-abilities (from Races of the Dragon, Draconomicon, etc.) make him on par with the others, but he still has problems being a "power player", unless he lucks out with criticals, or some such. He gets into the Draconic Heritage stuff, though; anything that cements him as more "alien" and dragon-ish, he takes. He uses special magic gloves to illusorily disguise his nature, but enjoys any development with his dead dragon sire, his mysterious Dragon benefactor that he works for, and last game blurts out " you!" in Draconic as he kills someone who threatened his life. (That Appendix of RotD was pretty neat when he showed it to me. ) He' got a bit of the power-gamer in him, but a bit of the Storyteller or maybe "Method Actor" in him, because feeding him more dragon-lore makes him happy. He couldn't get that with a gnome, or an elf, or lowly kobold; he's a human, not only living in two worlds, one forbidden to humans, but in Eberron Half-breed dragons are hunted and destroyed by the dragons; if his secret is too widely known, there will be repercussions.

And, it taught me that level adjustments do work in-game.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Yes, Bravo indeed. Shouldn't people who view a character as nothing more than statistics, attributes, and scores go play a war game? D&D is a role-playing game. It's based around story, plot motives, and -roles-.

It's not "bad wrong" to play D&D from purely mechanical standpoint. But it's sort of like buying a Civic as a racing car. Yes, I can race in a Civic, but aren't I going to be much more effective at racing if I do it, in say a Lotus? D&D isn't a wargame. It's a role-playing game.

This is called "begging the question". You are the one who put forth the claim that non-standard characters are veiwed by their players as nothing mroe than a collection of statistics. Rather than supporting this (and in the face of being shown to be wrong over and over) you instead treat it as a fact with which to support... the same argument.

Tell me the truth, are you trolling? Because this is the weakest logic I've ever seen on this forum, and thats saying something.

 

[hexgrid]

Shouldn't people who view a character as nothing more than statistics, attributes, and scores go play a war game?

If you want to play a wargame rather than an RPG, perhaps DDM might be a better outlet.

This makes no sense at all- D&D happens to support the style of gaming the two of you disagree with very well. Wargames don't even have systems for creating characters, let alone systems for twinked out templated characters with cool powers.

 

[der_kluge]

Well, as someone who recently played a character that strayed awfully close to DerKluge's example, let me elucidate.

I started out playing a human priest of Cuthbert. As a twist, I added in the background that his temple sat on a large natural gas deposit that had been capped. The Temple of the Eternal Flame was his home for many years. The clergy in the temple had become somewhat extreme for Cuthberites and believed that fire purified the wicked, thus, the wicked should burn. My 1st level cleric made lots of references to how fire was the primal force of good in the universe, yadda yadda yadda. Very gnostic.

Then I happened to get a Dragon magazine which had an article about half elementals. A three level progression for a half-elemental template. I talked to my DM, he figured it fit perfectly with the character, and I took levels in the template.

Now, this was a campaign that saw maybe six combats in four levels. Very high rp game. Here I was, playing a half-fire elemental, which, according to the OP, means that I should have been a roll-player.

So, in my experience, everything Der Kluge just ranted about, is bunk.

Well, that's different. If, OTOH, you started out as a half-fire elemental because of k3wl abilities, then that would be one thing, but in your case, you added something that made sense to your character from a role-playing perspective, and I'm down with that.

I'm talking about the people who start out playing templated-whatever just because they get x, y and z abilities.

 

[der_kluge]

This is called "begging the question". You are the one who put forth the claim that non-standard characters are veiwed by their players as nothing mroe than a collection of statistics. Rather than supporting this (and in the face of being shown to be wrong over and over) you instead treat it as a fact with which to support... the same argument.

Tell me the truth, are you trolling? Because this is the weakest logic I've ever seen on this forum, and thats saying something.

I'm just trying to figure out why, in a typical D&D campaign, someone would choose to play a bizarre, off-the-wall character concept like some of the ones I see people talking about on here. Are they playing them because they say "Damn, I'd really love to be able to role-play a half-troll, half-elemental whsiper gnome rogue/cloistered cleric?" Or is it because they say "Damn, look at all these bonuses a half-troll, half-elemental whisper gnome rogue/cloistered cleric will give me, and all these phat abilities, and and and..."


It seems to me, that the nature of the game has changed quite a bit over the years. It's tending more towards "phat, kewl Final Fantasy-esque" type of play where characters become nothing more than their special, unique abilities. We've already seen the game grow more in the players favor with feats, and prestige classes - players can tailor their characters to be almost anything. I'm al for variety, but is the game moving more towards a DragonballZ game: "I attack you with my FISTS OF FURY!" "Oh yea?! Well, I counter you with my ELDRITCH BLAST!!!"?

 

[Henry]

I'm talking about the people who start out playing templated-whatever just because they get x, y and z abilities.

Here's my question: Why is it more special if someone picks it for the role-playing opportunities? What if they pick it because of the RP opportunities, AND because it's cool and kicks butt? Are they any more Special than my Halfling Druid 17 who can transform into Dinosaurs, make earthquakes, call comets and flame strikes from the heavens, with the big fluffy 12 Hit dice 100-hit point Dog with the 33 Armor Class who can bite a 5th level fighter in half? (Which, incidentally, I'm playing a week from next Sunday.)

I like my Druid; but the fact is she can whip booty, and heal like a demigod, and put a 14th level half-dragon to shame with her ability to take punishment and deal it.