Why would you want to play *that*??

[fusangite]

I'm just trying to figure out why, in a typical D&D campaign,

I guess I need to know what is meant by "typical" here. As per the RAW, my understanding of a "typical" D&D campaign is that a character requires GM approval. If the GM approves a character who might seem to us to be peculiar or off the wall, obviously both he and the player agree that the character is appropriate for the setting. Now this setting, I'm pretty sure, is something neither of us would want to play in but to each his own.

someone would choose to play a bizarre, off-the-wall character concept like some of the ones I see people talking about on here.

I imagine, to answer rhetorically, because they find doing so fun. Why might it be fun? You offer a few theories of your own:

Are they playing them because they say "Damn, I'd really love to be able to role-play a half-troll, half-elemental whsiper gnome rogue/cloistered cleric?" Or is it because they say "Damn, look at all these bonuses a half-troll, half-elemental whisper gnome rogue/cloistered cleric will give me, and all these phat abilities, and and and..."

So, let's assume it's the second reason and not, as Henry suggests, both. Why is that bad? Clearly the game is designed to be played both ways. Otherwise all those manuals full of new classes, prestige classes, feats, spells and races wouldn't be flying off the shelves, supporting most of the people employed in the hobby.

Clearly you can imagine people getting off on the cool powers their character has. They might also enjoy the inherent weirdness of said character. They might be playing D&D like a faux-medieval superhero game, which would be okay too.

It seems to me, that the nature of the game has changed quite a bit over the years.

Uh-huh. It sounds to me like you've changed quite a bit over the years too. As I suggested in my last post, try and remember your 10 year old self and how he might feel about all these cool powers.

It's tending more towards "phat, kewl Final Fantasy-esque" type of play where characters become nothing more than their special, unique abilities.

Oh no! Maybe WOTC has successfully saved our hobby from the demographic collapse it was heading towards with an aging, shrinking base of players by somehow actually appealing to a new generation's youth market. Run for the hills!

We've already seen the game grow more in the players favor with feats, and prestige classes - players can tailor their characters to be almost anything. I'm al for variety, but is the game moving more towards a DragonballZ game: "I attack you with my FISTS OF FURY!" "Oh yea?! Well, I counter you with my ELDRITCH BLAST!!!"?

I think it's great that our game is becoming more versatile and capable of entertaining a wider range of players.

Sorry to quote your first sentence a second time but I wanted to add:

I'm just trying to figure out why, in a typical D&D campaign, someone would choose to play a bizarre, off-the-wall character concept

No. You're not. You have a very clear idea of why you think people are doing this. What you're doing is complaining about these people and impugning their worthiness as members of our community. You were given a whole bunch of answers by people who do these very things. Your response to answers that didn't agree with your basic theory of why people do this fell into two categories: (a) you ignored the post or (b) you replied, "Oh -- I didn't mean you... I meant to insult the people with bad reasons for doing this."

 

[der_kluge]

Here's my question: Why is it more special if someone picks it for the role-playing opportunities? What if they pick it because of the RP opportunities, AND because it's cool and kicks butt? Are they any more Special than my Halfling Druid 17 who can transform into Dinosaurs, make earthquakes, call comets and flame strikes from the heavens, with the big fluffy 12 Hit dice 100-hit point Dog with the 33 Armor Class who can bite a 5th level fighter in half? (Which, incidentally, I'm playing a week from next Sunday.)

I like my Druid; but the fact is she can whip booty, and heal like a demigod, and put a 14th level half-dragon to shame with her ability to take punishment and deal it.

I don't think it is more special. It's a matter of motivation. You probably didn't start out with a a halfling druid with the idea that you'd be able to kick major ass at some point. All the classes can kick ass at some point. You took a halfling druid because the concept appealed to you from a role-playing standpoint.

I'm talking about the people who solely pick things because they are cool and kick butt.

 

[Henry]

I'm talking about the people who solely pick things because they are cool and kick butt.

Oh, I'm not totally innocent; I remember well all those Rules Forum threads talking about how horribly broken the 3.5 Wildshape re-write is, and how a Druid with Natural Spell in animal form is a combat monster.

 

[hexgrid]

I'm talking about the people who solely pick things because they are cool and kick butt.

Wanting to kick but is a perfectly valid motivation for D&D character creation.

 

[der_kluge]

Your response to answers that didn't agree with your basic theory of why people do this fell into two categories: (a) you ignored the post or (b) you replied, "Oh -- I didn't mean you... I meant to insult the people with bad reasons for doing this."

I fully admit my position is not easy to defend. I ignored posts because I didn't have a good response for them. I'm not finding it terribly easy to put my thoughts into words with regards to this topic. Yes, it's fine if people want to play those things, but I'm trying to understand their motivation.

Are people playing Warlocks (for example) because they want to explore the sorcerous angst and natural disdain of a character and they have a great concept for a backstory, and want to work out a really interesting story - or do people play a Warlock because they can blast things forever, and get really cool abilities, and have damage reduction, and are just really kewl!

If people want to play D&D because they want to recreate FINAL FANTASY, then so be it, but I think there are probably better ways of doing that.

I don't think WoTC is adding new PrC/feats/spells/classes/whatever as a way to appeal to a younger demographic and save the dying hobby - I think they are doing it because it's easy. These books appeal to players - the largest segment of the population. They do it because they make money, and keeps WoTC afloat. I don't think they've specifically gone out of their way to strategically design these classes/whathaveyou with any sort of demographic in mind. I think they just keep churning out stuff, hoping to sale more product. I think you're giving WoTC far more credit than they deserve.


And I'm surprised to see so many people here sit back so passively and watch Dungeons and Dragons turn into a Dragonball-Z game.

 

[der_kluge]

Wanting to kick but is a perfectly valid motivation for D&D character creation.

Yes, I suppose it is, but it's also perfectly valid of me as a DM to require actual role-playing from such a character.

 

[The Shaman]

...the game moving more towards a DragonballZ game: "I attack you with my FISTS OF FURY!" "Oh yea?! Well, I counter you with my ELDRITCH BLAST!!!"?

Please forgive me for repeating myself, but, well, here I am repeating myself...

Fantasy as a literary and cinematic genre has changed, and fantasy RPGs reflect that change.

I understand your discomfiture, der_kluge - this isn't a style of fantasy (in literature, cinema, or roleplaying games) that I particularly enjoy, either. But it is what those crazy kids like these days, so it's not too surprising to me that the "World's Most Popular Roleplaying Game" emulates what's current in the genre.

 

[Henry]

Please forgive me for repeating myself, but, well, here I am repeating myself...I understand your discomfiture, der_kluge - this isn't a style of fantasy (in literature, cinema, or roleplaying games) that I particularly enjoy, either. But it is what those crazy kids like these days, so it's not too surprising to me that the "World's Most Popular Roleplaying Game" emulates what's current in the genre.

Sidenote: Have you returned, recently? Didn't remember any posts by you in a while. Either way, good to see you back.

I'll go with Shaman's position, too -- it does reflect some of the current genre trends; but I'll add that it's not something that is totally incompatible with one's gaming, and can be integrated somewhat. There are surely some things I balk at -- the recent PHB2 feat "Ki Blast", which instantly gave me bad-taste visions of Liu Kang from Mortal Kombat and Ken from Street Fighter. While it's perfectly mechanically OK, it just doesn't set well with me watching monks lob fireballs of Ki force. But if someone really wanted it, I'd seriously consider adding it, because (A) it would be fun for them, and (2) it does allow the reinforcement of the Monk as the loner who needs no equipment other than his body to thrive -- Street Fighter imagery be damned.

But I think I've given you the best answer I can -- people play it because it's part of what brings them enjoyment of playing. (Cue Robin Laws reference again.)

 

[fusangite]

I fully admit my position is not easy to defend. I ignored posts because I didn't have a good response for them. I'm not finding it terribly easy to put my thoughts into words with regards to this topic. Yes, it's fine if people want to play those things, but I'm trying to understand their motivation.

Well, if you really want to understand their motivation, head over to the WOTC boards and start this thread there. That's where you're going to find a large number of younger players who enjoy this kind of play. If you really want to understand, try accepting the explanations people are offering you.

My problem is that I don't see you trying to understand. What I see you doing is seeking confirmation of a theory you already have.

Are people playing Warlocks (for example) because they want to explore the sorcerous angst and natural disdain of a character and they have a great concept for a backstory, and want to work out a really interesting story - or do people play a Warlock because they can blast things forever, and get really cool abilities, and have damage reduction, and are just really kewl!

Why is this an "or"? Why can't it be both? Furthermore, why can't there be more explanations than that? Why can't people have all kinds of different motivations acting on them to varying degrees at different times, like real people?

If people want to play D&D because they want to recreate FINAL FANTASY, then so be it, but I think there are probably better ways of doing that.

Agreed. But let's imagine that it's not a binary here, that there is a continuum of ways of thinking about setting and character between D&D as you play it and a computer "RPG." Let's suppose that somebody playing Final Fantasy is sitting at their computer screen and, when they get into a fight with an adversary, they say a whole bunch of cool-sounding threatening stuff, like a dialogue between James Bond and one of the villains he faces down. The player might feel kind of disappointed that there is no way to represent that cool-sounding dialogue in the game. They might also wish that the villain would say stuff back to them, creative, eloquent stuff. This might be their initial inspiration for going out and buying the core rules with a few friends.

I think it's great that D&D can function as a "gateway game" for video gamers into the world of role-playing. It might be that they continue playing D&D like Final Fantasy with dialogue. It might be that they go back to playing Final Fantasy and forget D&D. But it might be that as they play D&D like Final Fantasy with dialogue, they begin to see the additional role-playing possibilities the game offers and gradually change their style of play to become more like yours.

I don't think WoTC is adding new PrC/feats/spells/classes/whatever as a way to appeal to a younger demographic and save the dying hobby - I think they are doing it because it's easy. These books appeal to players - the largest segment of the population. They do it because they make money, and keeps WoTC afloat.

False dichotemy alert. How is there an "or" here? You don't make money or appeal to a younger demographic. You make money and appeal to a younger demographic. You don't appeal to kid or appeal to players. You appeal to kids and thereby get more players.

I don't think they've specifically gone out of their way to strategically design these classes/whathaveyou with any sort of demographic in mind. I think they just keep churning out stuff, hoping to sale more product. I think you're giving WoTC far more credit than they deserve.

I think Hasbro knows quite a bit about what kids will like and has good ways of gathering intelligence on that front. Hasbro is a smart company, a heck of a lot older than D&D. I would be stunned if none of their insight about keeping games current across generations was being deployed on a new part of their company they spent a fair amount of money acquiring.

Furthermore, doesn't it just seem intuitive to you that the desire to play a half-dragon githzerai druid/monk/whatever is going to skew to a younger demographic. Kids get off on "kewl powerz" more than older gamers do. That's just from casual observation of the hobby.

And I'm surprised to see so many people here sit back so passively and watch Dungeons and Dragons turn into a Dragonball-Z game.

A long time ago, I got used to the fact that I find different things fun in RPGs than the mainstream of the hobby does. I know that the way most people play D&D I don't especially enjoy. I don't like what looks to me like incoherent world-building in the core rules and most popular settings. I don't like the way most people understand religion and physics in D&D. I like to represent plots, cultures and languages in ways that are unappealing to most players looking for a game.

I guess I'm having trouble relating to you coming to terms with the fact that most people are playing the game differently than the way you enjoy doing so because that happened to me 15 years ago.

What I like about D20, and the reason I came back to D&D, is that the system is now flexible enough to provide me with the tools I need to play it my way and to provide others with the tools they need to play it their way.

As a D&D player, fringe politician and all 'round weird guy, all I'm looking for is the chance to do my own thing and let other people do theirs. It doesn't bother me that I've diverged from the mainstream of the D&D hobby because I kind of expect to diverge from the mainstream of anything big that I get near.

These kids will grow up and either abandon the hobby or become more role-play focused. That's what happened to our generation, who went through the keep in Keep on the Borderlands and killed the shopkeepers for their stuff; and I have faith that the same thing will happen to the current generation of half-golem nixie illusionist/shadowdancers.

 

[Remathilis]

Yes, I suppose it is, but it's also perfectly valid of me as a DM to require actual role-playing from such a character.

Something tells me you don't have alot of high-str, low-int, low-cha half-orc barbarians in your game, do you?

Tell you the honest-to-god truth, a half-loony combo like a half-dragon duskblade, a tiefling warlock, or a earth bloodline goliath druid has MORE potential to be role-played than a human male fighter with plate-mail and a greatsword. Yawn. Done that for 12 years now. Viva Variety!

And yes, some DO build characters based on kewl powers. Some of us stop being twelve, some never do. If they are having fun, why are they wrong?