will 4.0 succeed?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Then we'll have several options:
1. starting over at Level 1 in 3E and playing as long as it's fun,
2. returning to an older edition of D&D,
3. playing a different RPG system,
4. stop playing RPGs altogether,
or:
5. switching to 4E.

How about (just to play the "devils advocate" )
6. Epic Six / E6, or a variant thereof. (maybe more something like E3E12?)
7. Buy and play only modules.

I just saying this because 7. is actually what most of the DMs in my group are doing (with most I mean everyone but me ), and 6. is something I was always tempted to try, but it doesn't really fly with my group. Non-Level advancement in D&D just isn't enough... But just thinking about it makes we want to tinker.... *must resist urge to write down new epic feat system*...

 

[Dragonblade]

Nah, this is old school! I like this. Makes undead scary. (Besides, that's what Restoration is for.)

But does it really make them scary? No, players don't want to tangle with undead for a purely metagame reason. I've seen groups run from Shadows that would tangle with Great Wyrm Red Dragons. Thats not right.

And the fact remains that levelling down a PC because a monster touched you, is not a fun mechanic. Its worse than character death because now your character is permanently crippled. And if you have lost substantially more levels than the rest of the party, your character might as well be dead anyway. And depending on the pace of XP gain in your game, a single combat with undead can take away months of effort and character advancement. While everyone else gets the thrill of experiencing advancement, the poor sap who got level drained now has to go through all those levels again. I've seen players simply retire their PCs and make new ones that could start back at a level the rest of the party was at. And in one extreme case, I saw one jerkoff DM lose a player out of his game over it. The player was so disheartened at having to play a character that was now 5 levels lower than the rest of the party (and the DM refused to allow him to make a new character) that he quit playing. Quit playing a game he loved to play, because of bad rules and a jerk behind the screen.

I quit that game after I saw that and started running my own game with house rules that fixed the BS that was level drain. Shortly after all the players left that other DM's game and joined mine. Gee, I wonder why?

If each person's turn is taking 20 minutes, it's not the game's fault. The DM should consider a time limit on turns.

But that delay wasn't due to player indecision, it was caused by the rules of the game. Multiple attack rolls, multiple damage rolls. Discussion and lookups of whether this buff or that was in effect and what stacked with what.

Gear can be replaced. That's what adventures are for. Perhaps characters afraid of losing their gear should take up jobs as farmers.

Not when your two rooms away from BBEG and his henchmen. Furthermore, non-casters are highly dependent on their gear to be anywhere as effective as a high level caster. Without their magical gear, a high level fighter is nothing but a mostly ineffective ground pounding meat shield.

Yeah, this can be a pain at high levels. But, a little prep time beforehand can fix this issue (similar to preparing a barbarian's rage scores & abilities vs. when not raging.)

Believe me, we have white boards and spread sheets and its still a nightmare. Heck the fact that we even have to have a spreadsheet is a big red flag.

It's never happened IME. If they go ethereal, they are likely to meet ethereal monsters IMC.

Wind Walk isn't ethereal. Just gaseous form that can travel at 60 miles and hour and pretty much go anywhere.

If the BBEG allows this to happen, he's a sucky BBEG.

In some respects true. But lower level captains of the BBEG aren't realistically going to have the high level anti-scry defenses of the BBEG and thus are easy pickings for a shrewd party.

Restoration is your friend.

What do you have against using Restoration?

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Again the problem with Restoration is it means someone has to play Cleric. It also may or may not be effective depending on how many times the Cleric has it memorized and how many negative levels acquired.

That's been the greatest flaw of WotC's stewardship of 3.5. They never created a program that would help you generate such monsters/NPCs quickly. The time it takes to do manually *is* a very big pain. Fortunately, that why 3pp adventures are extremely helpful.

Or perhaps the flaw is that you need a program at all. And I have been less than impressed with a lot of published stuff. Even Paizo. I still have to doublecheck the stat blocks and I still find errors, or have to look up spells and buffs and apply them to the stat block when they haven't applied them or forgotten to do so.

The bottom line is, I find a lot of the things you think of as "un-fun" to be quite enjoyable. And since many of the things you mention have been in every iteration of D&D since the start, I'm guessing there are a few others who find them fun as well.

The thing is that D&D in prior editions worked differently. It didn't take hours to make a character in 1e. Heck in 1e the characters were thinly veiled avatars for the players themselves. Save or Die works when you play a beer and pretzels game where any death is only a 5 minute delay to roll up a new guy and jump back into the dungeon. But D&D has evolved since then. Its now more about story and continuity of characters and plot. Character creation is something that takes time and attention to detail, yet we still use mechanics from an era with vastly different assumptions on how the game was played. I see 4e as correcting this discrepancy.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Let me rephrase. "Fun" is of course subjective. But generally speaking, I think the VAST majority of players don't find the following fun at all:

Rolling a 1 for your HP when you level up.

I always let my players take what they rolled, or an average for the dice, whichever is higher. I don't really care that that leaves them with more hit points than your average monster because, as a DM, I have more invested with the survival of the characters than I do with the survival of their challengers.

Having to level down your PC simply because a monster TOUCHED you.

Restoration works wonders. If they have no restoration available on hand, they probably will later, and in the mean time it's fun watching the player squirm.

Having to sit out the entirety of a two hour combat because you failed a save in the first round.

Been there, done that, but the combat was not two hours long.

Having to sit through an hour of combat before you can take another turn because each person's turn takes 20 minutes because of all the iterative attacks involved.

The only time that's ever happened for me is when we take a pizza break or a violent rules disagreement (the latter usually end with the player getting a boot to the head).

Losing magical gear you slogged through 20 levels to get with the casting of a single spell (Disjunction), or because a monster (Rust Monster, Black Pudding, etc.) touched you (again!).

I think that there are cases where adventures give the PCs too much treasure and the DM needs a rules justifiable way of removing some of it from them. YMMV, but I don't agree that the game lacks balance if the characters aren't slogging around a U-Haul full of magical gizmos.

Spending 45 minutes calculating all the parties buffs and stackable bonuses, only to have a bad guy drop a Dispel Magic or a Disjunction in the first round and then it takes an hour to recalculate everything.

I tell my players to have their math done before its their turn and I don't ask them to go through it all with me before they roll. Does that impart a certain degree of trust that the player is going to do it right and not be deceitful? Yes, it does, but I've never had it fail. The math becomes quite a bit easier when Dispel Magic or Disjunction comes into play.

And for DMs, I think the vast majority don't find the following fun at all:

Having players Wind Walk through an entire dungeon you spent hours creating.Having players Scry-Buff-Teleport into the BBEG's headquarters and cutting him down in his sleep, thus prematurely ending a campaign you spent months building up.

There are all kinds of spells the BBEG can use to make these spells and others ineffective. If the player complains, I just say, "Hey, this isn't Quake and you can't turn god mode on. The guy who set this up for you assumed that someone would try that and put some permanent spells in place to prevent that from happening.

Wanting to use a vampire as a classic villain only to end up with a near TPK and a party that is now about 10 levels too low for the rest of your epic campaign.

Restoration. As for the near TPKs, or TPKs, a good DM knows when to fudge dice rolls and when not to. Don't tell my players this, but a TPK doesn't serve the greater interest of the game.

Having players who prefer to simply create a new character from scratch (and thus throw away pages of campaign backstory and history) because losing Con or a level just sucks too much.

Never had this happen. If I did have it happen, I would simply tell the player that I wasn't going to allow it.

Spending hours painstakingly advancing a monster or NPC only to see it die in one round.

Yeah, that kind of sucks. There is a 3.5 hack for E-Tools that allows me to more quickly generate advanced monsters.

And last but most importantly, having to create house rules or fudge die rolls to prevent any of the above from happening because the system is just fundamentally broken.

Having a game where the PCs can die is not a broken system. If it were broken, the ideal game is one where you would sit down to play, congratulate everyone for showing up, tell them that they win and are the most awesome players in the history of the game ever, and then sit for hours talking about how brilliant your character is. The DM exists to steer the game in the direction he intended, and if the die rolls go the other way, it is up to the DM to be the storyteller and figure out a way to fix things on the fly. If there were no need for a DM, that position would never have been written in as a fundamental aspect of the game.

 

[dmccoy1693]

*Applaudes Dave Mage and Whisperfoot*

Again the problem with Restoration is it means someone has to play Cleric. It also may or may not be effective depending on how many times the Cleric has it memorized and how many negative levels acquired.

Potions of Lesser Restoration, Wand of Restoration + Use Magic Device. There are ways around everything.

But does it really make them scary?

Hells YEA!!! The out-of-character fright matches the in-character fright. Adventurers should find a large brown deposit in their pants when they see a vampire materialize. Plain and simple. Guess what, players do that too. Metagame reasons, sure, but the goal is accomplished.

The player was so disheartened at having to play a character that was now 5 levels lower than the rest of the party (and the DM refused to allow him to make a new character) that he quit playing. Quit playing a game he loved to play, because of bad rules and a jerk behind the screen.

Emphasis mine. That's the real problem, not the rules. Why didn't the DM suggest praying to the player's god for help? Or how about an Incantation. Like I said, there is always more then one way to accomplish anything in this game. No one should limit themselves to the most obvious methods only.

But that delay wasn't due to player indecision, it was caused by the rules of the game. Multiple attack rolls, multiple damage rolls. Discussion and lookups of whether this buff or that was in effect and what stacked with what.

And do you know what I do when I am not taking my turn, figure all that out so that way when it is my turn, I roll a die and I'm done.

Not when your two rooms away from BBEG and his henchmen. Furthermore, non-casters are highly dependent on their gear to be anywhere as effective as a high level caster. Without their magical gear, a high level fighter is nothing but a mostly ineffective ground pounding meat shield.

Either the DM 1) has a plan and that is apart of it or 2) is a terrible DM (assuming you're talking about the same guy from the previous statement, I'd guess #2). Either way, this isn't a rules fault. And assuming that a fighter is 'mostly ineffective' without his trusty sword, is (yet again) relying on the most obvious method of gaming. Bull Rush, Grapple, Overrun. These are all great combat ideas, and if the player isn't the best at using these, so what, so you take a few more moments to figure out these rules. Does he have a more satifying victory because he had to think through the problem and find new ways for him to be effective? IME, yes, loads!

The thing is that D&D in prior editions worked differently. It didn't take hours to make a character in 1e. Heck in 1e the characters were thinly veiled avatars for the players themselves. Save or Die works when you play a beer and pretzels game where any death is only a 5 minute delay to roll up a new guy and jump back into the dungeon. But D&D has evolved since then. Its now more about story and continuity of characters and plot. Character creation is something that takes time and attention to detail, yet we still use mechanics from an era with vastly different assumptions on how the game was played. I see 4e as correcting this discrepancy.

Rose colored glasses about 1E. 1E had its faults too. Only different ones. IME, every edition of DnD fixes some problems but makes all brand new ones. You're discussing 4E like its going to be the Paragon D&D system. Its not. It will have its faults too. Heck we already know some of them: squares instead of feet, combat mechanics that all but require to use minis, mouse-clicky combat, some people don't like the multi-classing, the list could go on and on and the books aren't even out yet.

So just because you don't like the issues with 3.5 but do like the issues of 4E doesn't mean that 95% of all games share your opinion. I have yet to meet a single gamer that is excited about 4E. 3.5 is going to be alive for quite some time.

 

[Khairn]

But that delay wasn't due to player indecision, it was caused by the rules of the game. Multiple attack rolls, multiple damage rolls. Discussion and lookups of whether this buff or that was in effect and what stacked with what.

Sorry DB, but I still call your example a problem with the GM and players, not the system.

I have a simple rule at my table. The players are to know the rules for the abilities and spells they have, and that they stay focused on the game so that when their turn comes up they know what is going on and can make a decision in a reasonably short amount of time.

Without those 2 little rules my combats become a classic example of the type of game your rightfully complaining about. But when I actually ask the players to follow those rules, combat is quite fast.

So if you are still having those problems with combat, I suggest you give those 2 rules a try. I think you'll be surprised at the results.

Then again, if the players or GM aren't willing or able to put in that effort, its probably a mute point.

So just because you don't like the issues with 3.5 but do like the issues of 4E doesn't mean that 95% of all games share your opinion. I have yet to meet a single gamer that is excited about 4E. 3.5 is going to be alive for quite some time.

I've met a few who are excited about 4E, but after a couple of play-tests at least one of them has started a list of house rules going so he can "fix" 4E. I'm certain that 4E will be a success. Just as I'm certain that a year from now I'll be playing at least 1 3E game and getting excited about the pending release of Pathfinder.

 

[Shazman]

I think it would definitely be more successful if they fired whoever is in charge of marketing instead of firing some of their 3.5 audience. Their "marketing" basically consists of saying, "What we sold you a few years ago is garbage. If you are still playing it, your games aren't fun. Our new edition will be so much better. Honest. " Insutling your customers is the best way to not sell something.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I'm certain that 4E will be a success. Just as I'm certain that a year from now I'll be playing at least 1 3E game and getting excited about the pending release of Pathfinder.

Exactly. 4E will, outsell every other RPG this year, unless something so amazing happens this year that 2008 goes down as the year that ***** outsold D&D and that game will live in infamey forever more (which I am not betting on). But 95%, no way.

 

[joethelawyer]

when talking about great 4e sales figures this and next year for wotc, dont forget to calculate all the sales they have given up since the announcement of 4e, as people decreased their 3.5 purchases, and also the scarcity of new products developed this past year. they have a financial hole to get out of, and i think that wotc is putting a lot of of hope into 4e to make up for all of that lost revenue.

i would be very interested in seeing wotc's bottom line sales projections/expectations for 4e.

joe

 

[Storminator]

Potions of Lesser Restoration, Wand of Restoration + Use Magic Device. There are ways around everything.

Unfortunately, every way around everything involves using a spell. At high levels, there is magic, and nothing else worth mentioning.

 

[DaveMage]

The player was so disheartened at having to play a character that was now 5 levels lower than the rest of the party (and the DM refused to allow him to make a new character) that he quit playing. Quit playing a game he loved to play, because of bad rules and a jerk behind the screen.

There is nothing worse than a good (involved) player with a bad DM.