will 4.0 succeed?

[Storminator]

Alright, let me rephrase that. If the player comes to me and says that he isn't really enjoying his character and wants to arrange an exit stage left to make room for something completely different, I'd probably let him have his way. If they're just whining because the character just needs a restoration spell, then not so much.

What if it's too late for Restoration, and the PC has permamently lost, let's say for the sake of argument, 6 levels? Is it still just whining?

PS

 

[dmccoy1693]

Again the problem with Restoration is it means someone has to play Cleric. It also may or may not be effective depending on how many times the Cleric has it memorized and how many negative levels acquired.

But in these cases you STILL need the cleric magic. Just because you have the cleric magic without the cleric doesn't mean you can play without the cleric magic!

My comment was in reference to the first, not the second.

But let me see if I understand your argument correctly. Your problem is that magic is an integral part of D&D, yes? From where I sit, it sound like you are playing the wrong game. Perhaps you want a magic-less game or a magicless homebrew. Or is your problem that magic is required to effectively combat magic. Remember Undead, those doing the very level drain that you are complaining about, are Magically animiated. Aka, its a magical effect, so if you are playing in the forementioned magicless homebrew, then there wouldn't be any undead to drain your levels so you don't need clerics and their restoration.

 

[Storminator]

My comment was in reference to the first, not the second.

But let me see if I understand your argument correctly. Your problem is that magic is an integral part of D&D, yes?

No. It's that gulf between spellcasters and non-spellcasters is so vast, that the latter might as well not even exist at high level.

From where I sit, it sound like you are playing the wrong game.

Hopefully 4e will fix that.

Perhaps you want a magic-less game or a magicless homebrew. Or is your problem that magic is required to effectively combat magic. Remember Undead, those doing the very level drain that you are complaining about, are Magically animiated. Aka, its a magical effect, so if you are playing in the forementioned magicless homebrew, then there wouldn't be any undead to drain your levels so you don't need clerics and their restoration.

The problem is that magic is required to do anything heroic. You can't fight giant scorpions unless you have magic, because they grapple you (and what 7th level fighter is going to beat a +21 grapple? Without magic?), then they poison you (and you aren't recovering from that any time soon...). You can't fight dinosaurs, again with the grapple. You obviously can't fight anything or anyone with magic. How did Conan defeat all those wizards and priests? For that matter, you can't string 3 fights together without magic because everyone's out of hit points.

I think we're getting far off topic here. I'm pretty sure we aren't going to convince each other, and probably won't even cover any new ground. I'm going to bow out of the discussion.

Take care!

PS

 

[dmccoy1693]

I think we're getting far off topic here. I'm pretty sure we aren't going to convince each other, and probably won't even cover any new ground. I'm going to bow out of the discussion.

Funny, I was going to say the same. I hope 4E is the perfect game for you. I won't be coming along.

 

[AllisterH]

I think SoD makes sense in 1E. AS another poster pointed out, character creation was quick and Gygax by example, (in DRAGON, he mentions his players coming with multiple character sheets for backup) showed that the "roleplaying" wasn't intended to be deep.

The blame actually lies with 2nd edition IMO.

2E was the system where both ROLL-playing and ROLE-playing before the table started to become emphasized. With kits, characters no longer became easy to roll up and worse, DRAGON itself used to talk about how players should come to sessions with actual writeups of their character history.

2E was the game system that said "you're not playing it right if you don't actually have a character background".

With these two points, why did 2E still use Save or Die?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The problem is that magic is required to do anything heroic.

So what?

I'm hard pressed to think of a single piece of fiction in which magic was involved- comic, novel, movie, or RW legend- in which you didn't use magic or at least arcane knowledge to combat magic, at least at the highest level.

Are there critters out there with vulnerabilities to mundane objects and materials? Certainly- but you have to have the knowledge to identify the creature, know its vulnerabilities, and be able to get past whatever defenses it may have erected to prevent such weapons being used on it. Typically, those added layers of defense are...(wait for it)...magical.

Sure, in modern "Urban Fantasy," you may be able to shoot the spellcaster with your Desert Eagle, but odds are good that even he has some kind of charm against being damaged by most mundane weapons or some way of healing himself or jumping bodies, etc. Even with modern tech, when magic enters the picture, you probably still need magic to fight it.

The problem isn't the game, the system or preconceptions of the designers, its magic itself.

 

[Arnwyn]

I'll make my wild and unfounded guesses, because everyone else is jumping off the bridge:

- No, 4e will not be as successful as 3e.
- Fully 80%+ of those who say they'll skip 4e will actually do what they themselves said and skip 4e.

 

[Dragon Snack]

I've seen the "New Coke" example very often now, and I really have never heard before the whole 4E talk about it. Must have been before my time.

1985? While Wikipedia doesn't always have it facts straight, it's a good starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke

Some relative things...

• Only 10-12% of customers were able to bring down New Coke (compared this to online polls of people who won't switch)
• Marketing missteps (perhaps the most similar, in WotC's favor there isn't a large competitor ready to pounce on their missteps)

Not that I'm among those forcasting a marketing disaster like New Coke, but there are some similarities so it should be a cautionary tale.

You can't fight giant scorpions unless you have magic, because they grapple you (and what 7th level fighter is going to beat a +21 grapple? Without magic?), then they poison you (and you aren't recovering from that any time soon...). You can't fight dinosaurs, again with the grapple.

I had a player with a Dwarven Barbarian/Fighter with Close Quarters Fighting (and probably some other appropriate Feats that I don't remember) who pretty much stood toe to toe with Dinosaurs (they fought Evil Gnome Druids infesting an area with them from levels 7-9) and a Gargantuan Scorpion at level 10 or 11 (he did have help from the Druids Enlarged Dire Ape companion, but yes, he was able to beat a +58 Grapple).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

1985? While Wikipedia doesn't always have it facts straight, it's a good starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke

I was 4 years then. If I was already allowed to drink Cola then, it was probably at weekends or more likely during a family festivity, or if I was ill. Before my time definitely fits.

 

[Gallo22]

Let me rephrase. "Fun" is of course subjective. But generally speaking, I think the VAST majority of players don't find the following fun at all:

Rolling a 1 for your HP when you level up.
Having to level down your PC simply because a monster TOUCHED you.
Having to sit out the entirety of a two hour combat because you failed a save in the first round.
Having to sit through an hour of combat before you can take another turn because each person's turn takes 20 minutes because of all the iterative attacks involved.
Losing magical gear you slogged through 20 levels to get with the casting of a single spell (Disjunction), or because a monster (Rust Monster, Black Pudding, etc.) touched you (again!).
Spending 45 minutes calculating all the parties buffs and stackable bonuses, only to have a bad guy drop a Dispel Magic or a Disjunction in the first round and then it takes an hour to recalculate everything.

And for DMs, I think the vast majority don't find the following fun at all:

Having players Wind Walk through an entire dungeon you spent hours creating.
Having players Scry-Buff-Teleport into the BBEG's headquarters and cutting him down in his sleep, thus prematurely ending a campaign you spent months building up.
Wanting to use a vampire as a classic villain only to end up with a near TPK and a party that is now about 10 levels too low for the rest of your epic campaign.
Having players who prefer to simply create a new character from scratch (and thus throw away pages of campaign backstory and history) because losing Con or a level just sucks too much.
Spending hours painstakingly advancing a monster or NPC only to see it die in one round.

And last but most importantly, having to create house rules or fudge die rolls to prevent any of the above from happening because the system is just fundamentally broken.

4e will be a success because it fixes these issues and thus will be easier and more fun to play than 3.x was for the vast majority of players and DMs.

I can't disagree with you. These are good examples, which as you state has been fixed by house rules...HOWEVER, I find it highly likely that you will find similar and/or new problems with 4E or any other rpg for that matter.

Remember the golden rule...the book is a guide!!!

EDIT/SIDE BAR: I must say though, most of those problems have not happened in my group or if they do they are easily fixed with a house rule, not a whole new edition.