D&D 4E Will 4E be crunchy or smooth?

[Lonely Tylenol]

4E's 3-point plan of attack seems to be "simplify, simplify, simplify." We are told we can expect a game that is quicker to get up and running, requires less paperwork and bookkeeping, and stays smooth into the higher levels. However, some of us are what you might call power gamers, and we like our D&D to be full of crunch. We like putting together clever synergies, figuring out excellent combos, and generally knowing a spell, feat, or class ability that will excel in every possible situation. Complex, for us, is good.

Not that I don't appreciate "fast and easy". But I wonder if they can achieve "fast, easy, and complex".

 

[Shortman McLeod]

4E's 3-point plan of attack seems to be "simplify, simplify, simplify." We are told we can expect a game that is quicker to get up and running, requires less paperwork and bookkeeping, and stays smooth into the higher levels.

Dear Lord, I hope so. Right now, I find running 3.5 to be closer to a job than fun. I can see where someone who is deeply fascinated by number crunching and memorizing hundreds of pages of obscure rules might love the current level of complexity, but I think WotC has finally realized that these folks are a minority.

However, some of us are what you might call power gamers, and we like our D&D to be full of crunch. We like putting together clever synergies, figuring out excellent combos, and generally knowing a spell, feat, or class ability that will excel in every possible situation.

On the other hand, some of us prefer the drama of high fantasy and the excitement of playing a character in an exciting story. It's the old dichotomy, the CCG/WoW types vs. the drama queen types. But I understand where you're coming from. D&D 3.5 functions extremely well as a skirmish-level war game, and I have actually enjoyed it at times in this capacity.

Complex, for us, is good. Not that I don't appreciate "fast and easy". But I wonder if they can achieve "fast, easy, and complex".

"Fast, easy, and complex" seems like a contradiction to me. But what I'm hoping for in 4e (I refuse to type "4.0", since that implies an inevitable 4.5) is a game that scales more smoothly. So there will be various levels of complexity, rather than painfully simple (D&D Basic Game) and horrifically complex (D&D 3.5 core).

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

From the way they've talked about it so far, sounds like the aim is a smooth, easy crunch.

 

[EricNoah]

I like a game that has fiddly bits for the players, who only have to control one dude, and yet comes out of the gate streamlined on the DM side (with possible option to add fiddly bits). Possibly implies that PCs and NPCs/Monsters play by different rules -- but hey, I've always played that way.

 

[Zoatebix]

I'm with AMG - I think that the developers recognize crunch as one of D&D's assets, or at least something that a significant portion of players want to see. From what I've read so far, I think they're going to get the "smooth, easy crunch" thing down.

As Robin D. Laws put it, “Heinsoo. Wyatt. Mearls*. It will rock, end of story.”

 

[Agamon]

Easy to learn, but deep in execution. That's my favorite kind of board game. If they can do that with D&D, I'd be happy.

 

[Alan Shutko]

However, some of us are what you might call power gamers, and we like our D&D to be full of crunch. We like putting together clever synergies, figuring out excellent combos, and generally knowing a spell, feat, or class ability that will excel in every possible situation. Complex, for us, is good.

I wonder which market is bigger. For me, all that is the stuff that was pushing me away from 3e. I'm not sure whether one game can service both camps.

 

[frankthedm]

Thankfully there should be fewer unforeseen "combos" since they have seen the majority of splat material once or twice before. Things like the Dread Necromancer being able to Take "Tomb tainted soul" to continually cure himself most likely won't happen unless it is intended.

There will be combos, but most will have been intended in the first place, rather than pieces of dissociated splat material that lead to Pun-Pun and such

 

[howandwhy99]

Seeing how D&D has progressed, I'm saying Ultra-Crunchy. I don't believe this set of designers has any intention at all of pulling back from highly rule-defined play to a more imagination-defined style. Now it will probably be greased lightning crunchy, but it will still be all about the crunch.

Case in point: just like when 3E's original cool powers became old news, fresh feats needed to be purchased. That element of "goodies" purchased from designers will remain the same. Entertainment is more often purchased now, not created by the consumer.

EDIT: this is partly why RPGs are failing so badly. They operate like fortune tellers; they sell you your own dreams back to you. There is absolutely no reason to spend any money at all, but sometimes you need the dreams reflected back at you.

 

[Hjorimir]

I hope they replace the complexity with sophistication while keeping in line with making the game streamlined for preparation and play.