Will Levels be taken out and shot?

[Hussar]

One of the most prominent features of WoW is the length of time it takes to increase a character's power. Players use terms such as 'farming' and 'grinding'. Increasing reputation with a faction can require the killing of hundreds of not thousands of monsters. Does that sound like instant gratification to you?

Shhh, quiet. Don'tcha know that Godwinning a thread is the new cool?

 

[Frostmarrow]

Interesting assertion. So, you could have two modules, one featuring blind kobolds and the other featuring a Balor, both for the same party?

No, you would need some measure of group power level, and then you haven't gotten rid of the niches, you've just changed the scale.

I just wanna go "Told you so" when this happens.

Instead of Orc and Pie you will have 25% of party cost worth of orcish humanoids and pie. So there will be a balor for characters of high cost but probably just an imp for low level dudes. When it comes to fantastic spells such as teleport they can remain in teh game as features of an adventure rather than as spells for PC transport.

 

[Frostmarrow]

This is just wrong. As has been pointed out, equipment is factored into the assumptions

Oh yes it is is. Hidden away from the players in the DMG. -It isn't very intuitive that a 4th level character has got gear for 5400 gp that's all.

However, a 60 point character is a 60 point character even though 90% might be gear.

But I don't want to keep defending this shoddy rule because it was just an example of something else than levels. R&D can come up with something much better than I can. It seems to me that most of the reasons for keeping Levels in the game are sentimental. The argument that Levels keep high level functions in check is a good one though.

I'm just saying: sentimental won't cut it. Bottom line will.

 

[Desdichado]

Huh. I'd have said all along that although I wouldn't mind, I could never see levels being removed from D&D. But you make an intriguing case in terms of designing the game to sell more product over time.

I still don't think it'll happen, but that's an intriguing idea.

 

[rgard]

I was just thinking about Eyes of the Lich Queen, which I have ordered but not yet received. The adventure is set in Eberron for levels 5-9. It is not news to anyone on these boards that this adventure is niched twice from the get go. First you need a party in Eberron and secondly you need to be 5th level to be able to use it.

I dont think Wizards will give up their business model of supporting different settings for their game. I don't now why they keep this up but I guess they try to cast a wide net. (For me I'd just the same have D&D be the setting.)

So I wonder: In 4th edition will levels be removed? -Frankly, what is the importance of levels? If there were no levels every module would fit every group. Every monster would fit every group and it would be simpler to target players with new feats, prestige classes and challenges if there were no levels involved.

Of course, I do enjoy levels in play but not enough to justify their existance since they are an obstacle when it comes to buying products.

Naturally you need to have some model for experience and growth in the game but I'm sure the designers can come up with something that works if they were ordered to*. I think Wizards really want to sell Eyes of The Lich Queen to every group with a game in Eberron, not only those whom just happens to be at 3-4th level.

What do you think, will levels be the next sacred cow to get taken out and shot?

I like the level system. Works for me and the folks I game with. Take out levels and remove one more reason to convert from 3.5 to 4.0 for us.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Odhanan]

Well, I'm no designer. I'm convinced a clever designer can create a system of growth and experience that is compatible with a modules without level spans.

But this could work, couldn't it?

Encounter with goblins for 100 point party: 12 goblins @ 8 points. or

Encounter with goblins for 500 point party: 1 goblin captain @ 15 points, 1 goblin shaman @ 23 points, and 58 goblins @ 8 goblins.

The leader carries the map needed to advance the plot...

Have you checked out GURPS? Because it does sound a lot like what you wanna see, and it's been around for a long, long time.

 

[delericho]

Instead of Orc and Pie you will have 25% of party cost worth of orcish humanoids and pie. So there will be a balor for characters of high cost but probably just an imp for low level dudes. When it comes to fantastic spells such as teleport they can remain in teh game as features of an adventure rather than as spells for PC transport.

As you yourself just indicated, there are many things that a high level party can do that a low level party can't match. Teleportation, high level divinations, and flight magics make many of the staples of the low-level adventure simply not work at high level.

Furthermore, encounter levels don't scale indefinately with number of monsters - in theory 1,024 'normal' orcs is a CR 19 encounter. But it you put a quartet of 19th level PCs up against such opposition they will mow through them with a minimum of fuss.

And, what's more, I buy adventure modules to have the work of adventure prep done for me, and especially the tedium of generating stat blocks for opponents. An adventure listing opponents as "25% of party cost worth of orcs" is of no benefit to me.

 

[jasin]

Instead of Orc and Pie you will have 25% of party cost worth of orcish humanoids and pie. So there will be a balor for characters of high cost but probably just an imp for low level dudes.

In theory, you can do this without changing the levels system. Include a 1st-20th table for every encounter, listing enemies to be used depending on the party's level, and there you have it, a one-size-fits-all adventure.

In practice, it will be just as silly without levels as it would be with them.

 

[Frostmarrow]

As you yourself just indicated, there are many things that a high level party can do that a low level party can't match. Teleportation, high level divinations, and flight magics make many of the staples of the low-level adventure simply not work at high level.

Furthermore, encounter levels don't scale indefinately with number of monsters - in theory 1,024 'normal' orcs is a CR 19 encounter. But it you put a quartet of 19th level PCs up against such opposition they will mow through them with a minimum of fuss.

And, what's more, I buy adventure modules to have the work of adventure prep done for me, and especially the tedium of generating stat blocks for opponents. An adventure listing opponents as "25% of party cost worth of orcs" is of no benefit to me.

It works in Warhammer and DDM. And frankly encounter levels works less than perfectly. I admit it is a problem but not a big one.

Prep work will be kept to a minimum with the help of monster cards (as in DDM). In any event this is already a problem/solution in Living Greyhawk, as Merric pointed out.

In theory, you can do this without changing the levels system. Include a 1st-20th table for every encounter, listing enemies to be used depending on the party's level, and there you have it, a one-size-fits-all adventure.

In practice, it will be just as silly without levels as it would be with them.

Levels can be tacked on.

0-99 points = 1st level
100-199 points = 2nd level
...

 

[WayneLigon]

So I wonder: In 4th edition will levels be removed? -Frankly, what is the importance of levels? If there were no levels every module would fit every group. Every monster would fit every group and it would be simpler to target players with new feats, prestige classes and challenges if there were no levels involved.

Of course, I do enjoy levels in play but not enough to justify their existance since they are an obstacle when it comes to buying products.

Levels or not, there still has to be some means of saying 'X is tougher than Y' and when that happens, there will still be adventures that some people can go on but not others. For example, GURPS uses the point buy system; an adventure with 500 point villains isn't really useable by starting 100pt characters.