Will Levels be taken out and shot?

[Delta]

If level power were linear then the same ratio would exist between the number of 1 HD monsters a 1st level party, a 5th level party, a 10th level party, and 15th level party could defeat. For example if the linear slope for levels were 1 then fifteen 1 HD monsters would the same difficulty of challenge to a 15th level party as 1 such monster is to a 1st level party. The experience award and CR tables in the Dungeon Master's Guide also aren't linear.

You're right. When you first wrote "class levels should be more linear" it was unclear whether you were talking about the bonuses, or the effective power. I'll concede to what you've just written here.

 

[delericho]

I know what you mean, but, I dunno. The multibook thing would annoy the heck out of me.

Agreed. I can see the core rules changing to do levels 1 - 15, though, possibly rescaling those so what is now 15th level becomes 20th level. I could even see them moving to levels 1 - 12, although that might be a bit too far. Judging by their recent adventures, WotC seem to have settled on the upper-mid levels as the end of the 'sweet spot'.

Then, they would probably do a "High Level Adventures" book covering levels 16 - 20 (more likely if it's 13 - 20), and then perhaps an "Epic Level Handbook" for games beyond that. But that's unlikely, as it's unlikely enough people will buy HLA to justify an ELH.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

To some extent, you could remove the levels from adventures by using the 'lensing method' introduced by the Spycraft 2.0 guys. Using the lensing method, NPCs and critters are designed differently than PCs. They use some number of statistics like Initiative, Attack, Defense, Competence... etc. Each statistic gets a rating, from one to ten, which is used to compare to the characters in the party, where 1 is abysmal compared to the group and ten is ninja-riffic compared to the group. The bad guys and critters then scale with the level of the party.

This doesn't take into account non-combat challenges and the prevalence of challenge bypassing powers that the characters gain as they increase in level, though, which could still cause some difficulty. Especially when dealing with the highest level characters...

Later
silver

 

[deimos3428]

I can't see D&D removing levels anytime soon, if ever. There's no real need -- a DM can scale any prewritten module to match the power level of the party with relative ease. B2 not difficult enough? No problem. Just change it to "Keep Far, Far Away from the Borderlands -- There's a Tarrasque Running About."

If you're looking for an alternative that doesn't have levels, and as a bonus is authored by Gary Gygax, check out Lejendary Adventures.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

One of the most prominent features of WoW is the length of time it takes to increase a character's power. Players use terms such as 'farming' and 'grinding'. Increasing reputation with a faction can require the killing of hundreds of not thousands of monsters. Does that sound like instant gratification to you?

Nope.

Which, interestingly means I don't want D&D to be "videogamey" - but I understand "videogamey" differently than it is usually used when critizing D&D 4 or other new game concepts.

I require fast (even if not instant) gratifications. I tried out WoW, and was quickly annoyed by the fact that I had to go through 2 extremely boring combats (kill kobolds, kill wolves) to get some XP (I don't know if I even got levels).

It's not a game for me. I want the character and the plot advancing together, and it should be reasonable fast. No farming, grinding or any other mindless, repeating task. If my character has reached the top level after 10 days of gaming, I am fine and will try a different one. Provided the adventure was interesting enough to do it again - or there are even more out there!

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

To me levels is D&D. If I wanted to play point based fantasy I would play exalted (I actually have alot of their books, just never get to play).

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Of course, but IIRC no one on this thread that has tried to explain levels has said anything about sentimental being one of the reasons.

You either have a game system that increases the power of characters or not. If you increase the power of characters, then an adventure must be geared to a particular power level. That's just basic logic, and I wouldn't hold my breath for R&D to come up with a way to circumvent logic (although the irony is that people that don't understand basic logic probably would hold their breaths while waiting).

Err, if they don't understand logic, how is it "ironic" that they would hold their breath waiting for logic to be circumvented?

Ah, never mind. I've got too much free time on my hands right now.

 

[Gundark]

Well, I'm no designer. I'm convinced a clever designer can create a system of growth and experience that is compatible with a modules without level spans.

Take a look at Spycraft 2.0. The system has levels however due to how the NPC generation works every module that is produced for living Spycraft can be played with any level.

It would take some tweaking (which I thought Adamat was doing something for this), but it could be done for D&D.

So levels aren't the problem it's how the adventures/ monsters/ npcs are designed that is the problem

 

[Celebrim]

The only way you solve that problem is by removing advancement, and that is a Really, Really Bad Idea. D&D is about getting Cool Stuff, and advancement is a prime way of getting Cool Stuff.

Diablo and its sequel did a pretty good job of removing advancement from the game while still giving the appearance of advancement. Rumor has it that it was still a pretty successful release.

For example, if I have a 50% chance to hit an Orc Warrior and do 10 damage, and the OW can sustain 40 damage, when I level up a few times and have a 50% chance to hit a Orc Champion and do 20 damage and the OC can sustain 80 damage, the game will be playing basically the same. And it will still be playing the same when I have a 50% chance of hitting the Black Orc Dreadnaught and 100 damage, and the BOD can sustain 400 damage, and so forth. Lots of cool new stuff, the same as the old new stuff.

While there is absolutely no sign that levels are going away from D20, it would be relatively easy to 'fix the math' so that nothing really changes but the scale and still retain the level system. Once you do that, every module can be adapted for any level in a hurry. Instead of writing '6 HD minotaur', you just write something like 'Minotaur Brute +2' and the game scales to the level of the party.

 

[Lackhand]

Except for that darned Fly, Invisibility, Teleport...

But yes, idempotent math would be cool.