Will the Magic System be shown the door?

[jefgorbach]

Personally I agree with Rothe - the existing magic system with its multitude of BOOKS of spells would seriously overburden any attempt to move the game online. Heck the 1998 Wizard's Compendium vol 1-4 alone came to around 4,000 densely typed pages and obviously excludes everything added/revised over the past nine years AND only covered the arcane half of the magic system!!

Epic Spells attempted to add a simplier effect-based system, however it seems the majority of fans rejected it. Even so, such a system would add tremendous overhead of extra variables needing tracked.

Chances are an online version would reduce spell-casters to a very small list of spell skills, useable at will with durations of either Instant or Encounter.

 

[MerricB]

I think the most unlikely system to replace Vancian magic is spell-points: the 3e Psionic system has really shown the folly in that. The tendency to alpha-strike is far worse than anything Vancian magic does.

Cheers!

 

[ashockney]

Vancian Magic System - perhaps the ultimate sacred cow

Dungeons and Dragons was written to be a game for characters to play from level 1 to approximately level 13. It has grown to be from level 1 - 20, but really starts to fundamentally break down after 12th level. The issue in part, is due to the sacred cows from the original aspects of the game.

With the evolution and aging marketplace of rpgs, and the ever-expanding reach of MMORPG's it is time to kick some of the most fundamental sacred cows to the curb, in order to evolve the gameplay experience for one of the best, and most powerful, sword and sorcery brands.

Dungeons and Dragons must eliminate or significantly revise the vancian magic system.

At 20th, 30th, or 40th level, having to keep track of 45 - 75 spells is simply too much. It deters from the enjoyment of the game. The disparity in power between the 1st and 9th level spells is simply too great.

As to what you do to replace it, there's a number of great options out there. Personally, I'd like to see them build ALL of these options into the game to provide the most robust and complex game-play experience possible.

Go 4th edition!

 

[ashockney]

I think the most unlikely system to replace Vancian magic is spell-points: the 3e Psionic system has really shown the folly in that. The tendency to alpha-strike is far worse than anything Vancian magic does.

Cheers!

What do you mean by Alpha Strike MerricB? My limited exposure to psionics in my last campaign was a really excellent one. They employed an excellent "magic-like" system, without all the broken "sacred cows" and the "overchannelling" and spell point dumps I thought add a very cool variation into the risk/reward equation for the player.

 

[WhatGravitas]

What do you mean by Alpha Strike MerricB? My limited exposure to psionics in my last campaign was a really excellent one. They employed an excellent "magic-like" system, without all the broken "sacred cows" and the "overchannelling" and spell point dumps I thought add a very cool variation into the risk/reward equation for the player.

I think he means "going nova", i.e. blowing all your power into a huge attack... making you the big blaster, wiping out the opposition in the first combat, then leaving you powerless in the following ones.

 

[MerricB]

That's right. (It's a term I picked up from the Battletech CCG, though it probably predates that). Psionics is even more dependent on the four encounters per day than Vancian magic is. If you only have one encounter in a day, then the ability to pour points into powers makes the Psion much stronger than any other character, who are more measured in their output.

Cheers!

 

[Andor]

I suspect the eventual 4th ed will have a mix of systems in the PH. Probably the Wizard will be the good 'ol vancian system, the sorcerer will use a per encounter system a la Bo9S, and the eventual Dedirted Mysteries will introduce yet more options.

And I still want 4th ed to be the holodeck edition.

Personally I'd like to see a system where magic types can contribute every battle, but still face a signifficant price for hauling out the big guns. Perhaps every use of a top level spell cost Con damage say.

 

[Victim]

I like the Vancian system too.

However, a hybrid model with some unlimited or per encounter resources and some strategic resources might be intrigueing. Making the per day (or whatever) spells limited by encounter as well prevents the alpha strike then rest strategy common with psionics (and 3.0 casters).

I find spell points to be far more complicated than slots. Sure, it's just one number that goes down when you cast things. It appears simple, yes. But in terms of possible combinations of effects, spell points are monstrously complicated. If you don't track multiples of 17, then throwing out a Detect Psi can end up costing you a 9th level power.

 

[glass]

Of all the sacred cows of D&D, I'd say that Vancian magic is IMO the most likely to go.

I sincerely hope not.


glass.

 

[satori01]

Arcana Evolved has the best 'Vancian' System. Flavor is added by classifying spells as Simple, Complex, and Exotic...feat selections allow characters to make archetypes not possible now like a Fire Mage, that have Mechanical and Practical effects, (ie you get to know more fire spells, and those spells have greater effects).

The system also gives wide access to a number of spells, allows for a degree of spontaneous casting prowess and most importantly gives flexibility through spell weaving...allowing the caster to determine the power of their spells by either combining lower level slots to get more high level slots, or sacrificing high level slots for low level slots.

Best of all no Arcane/Divine Magic divide.

If Vancian magic stays all of these things need to be in it. The Magic Divide between Arcane/Divine is unnecessary, especial given the light that Druid/Cleric spell progression is no longer the poor red headed step child of the Wizard class.

Metamagic feats need to be reworked....to put it frankly some of those effects should be regular options available to any spell caster...and a different mechanism should be in place other than increasing the level of the spell.

Spellweaving should be part of the system, at high level your 1st-2nd level slots are almost never exhausted. It encourages the "Barkskin" the whole party play, which is fine...and makes sense, but also adds to the bookkeeping nightmare.

Finally some at will, or per encounter based powers need to be added to spellcasters. Masters of magic should have something at their disposal ...be it at will cantrips/low level spells...or magical effects. This way per day spell slots can be made more powerful, and everyday things like Mage Armor and the like can be removed from the spell list.

3.0/3.5 is the most 'balanced' edition when it comes to magic, to the point where a valid and cogent argument can made that a Spell Caster has to endure a lot more dice rolls to get a similiar effect to what physical combatants can do.

Fighters do not have to contend with To Hit rolls & SR rolls & Saving Throws to land an effect.... a damaging effect that often times is not as powerful as a full attack action.