Will the Magic System be shown the door?

[WhatGravitas]

Arcana Evolved has the best 'Vancian' System.

Agreed - that's great!

Best of all no Arcane/Divine Magic divide.

However, I don't know, if they're going to butcher that cow at all. The priest = healer idea has nowadays crept into other RPGs (CRPGS, as well as PnP-RPGs), and is an archetype of D&D. Heck, the FR were in a riot, if suddenly gods could only grant the spells, a wizard could learn as well... They cannot pull that without massively re-writing many settings. But then, they don't support that much today, and Eberron can work without divine magic - it already puts the emphasis on arcane magic, and regards divine magic as "unfathomable".

 

[James Heard]

I think a hybrid "encounter/per day" permanent ability/spell slots system could work. You'd have some spells that you'd be able to use basically all day long (per encounter) and some that you'd use once or twice per day for greater effect and you'd have some spells that you'd have access to at all times and some that you'd have to slot in to show off some variety.

I don't think it would be particularly more confusing for a new player than picking all their spells-per-day from a large list, especially from an exceptionally large list like Clerics get once you start using more books than the Core. I'd even work this mechanic into non-casting classes, where Rogues would have abilities they'd be able to use per encounter, per day, and all the time with varying degrees of authority and you'd see fighter sorts with options that allowed them cool melee things that they couldn't just do all the time, etc. I mean, once you thinking about Weapon Mastery as a "spell that's always on" for fighters you're in a spot where you can start looking at spellcasters tossing fireballs in a equitable manner I think.

 

[Nebulous]

I'd say "no" for my opinion, because it's the FAST recharge times (1 round, 1 mintue, 1 hour, etc.) that give me the "martial arts movie" feeling that I don't like for my D&D fantasy. Heroes who have to rest up for a long time (half a day, a day, a week, etc.) after blowing all their hit points and powers are more what I look for than just, "OK, it's the next scene, you've got all your powers back and you're healed up." Good for martial arts cinema, good for Feng Shui, Good for Superheroes, bad for my D&D fantasy.

Unfortunately, i can see WotC going the route of "fast & simple" magic because it will be the most appealing to computer gamers. IMHO, 3rd edition became somewhat video-gamey with its rapid leveling, and i think the game will continue that trend. I hope i'm wrong.

 

[Psion]

Agreed - that's great!

However, I don't know, if they're going to butcher that cow at all. The priest = healer idea has nowadays crept into other RPGs (CRPGS, as well as PnP-RPGs), and is an archetype of D&D. Heck, the FR were in a riot, if suddenly gods could only grant the spells, a wizard could learn as well... They cannot pull that without massively re-writing many settings. But then, they don't support that much today, and Eberron can work without divine magic - it already puts the emphasis on arcane magic, and regards divine magic as "unfathomable".

Absolutely. A shift between psuedo-Vancian and some other system might be waved off as a background detail, but the arcane/divine division is pretty much a core D&D metasetting element.

 

[Nebulous]

Absolutely. A shift between psuedo-Vancian and some other system might be waved off as a background detail, but the arcane/divine division is pretty much a core D&D metasetting element.

Going back to the Arcana Evolved ideas, the Arcane/Divine structure inherent in D&D can probably be retained by breaking down everything into distinct spheres or domains, and classes are granted certain domains that define what they can and cannot cast. Within those domains you can have tiers of spells, whether simple, complex or exotic, or maybe Healing 1/2/3, with meta-magic built into every spell individually, allowing you to expand the range, duration, damage, etc, depending on your level of expertise. Yes, it's a huge change from the sacred cow of D&D, but leaving the spell system as is would be doing D&D a terrible injustice. There have been so many great advances in the d20 system (and even non-d20) that it would be a shame not to incorporate some of those ideas.

 

[Psion]

Going back to the Arcana Evolved ideas, the Arcane/Divine structure inherent in D&D can probably be retained by breaking down everything into distinct spheres or domains, and classes are granted certain domains that define what they can and cannot cast.

In other words, pretty much the way it is handled now.

It sounds to me like you are positing changing to the AE system just because you can. I think that in doing such a port, you lose any value it might have had in doing such a port in the first place.

leaving the spell system as is would be doing D&D a terrible injustice. There have been so many great advances in the d20 system (and even non-d20) that it would be a shame not to incorporate some of those ideas.

Forcing it into a framework that doesn't fit would, if anything, be a "terrible injustice". The only thing of value to be meaningfully drawn from AE as I see it is to utilize their preparation system. (In fact, that's pretty much what WoW RPG does... and it's pretty cool.)

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If I had to name the #1 thing I would significantly change or replace, it would be the magic system. Many - I would even say most - balance problems and 'story' problems begin and end with the magic system as written.

100% agree.

I'm still in love with the "Vancian" system. Per encounter is not my cup of tea, and though I like systems like Book of 9 swords, I still can't shake the feeling of the whole paradigm moving to a more "wuxia" or super-powered system, away from the roots of the game.

The historical roots, or the gameplay roots? In my opinion, the root of the gameplay is "wahoo."

As you know, that's not really my cup of tea either, but from a design perspective, I respect it. You might say I'm enamored with per encounter design. It just plays better.

And I think it would be a very easy thing to scale the per encounter power level to something that suits my taste.

A lot of the discussions I have participated in here at ENworld have made me realize that I'm not generally anti-magic, I'm just anti-high-level magic-- because that's the magic that breaks down the play experience.

I can stomach a whole lot of "sweet spot wahoo."

Good for martial arts cinema, good for Feng Shui, Good for Superheroes, bad for my D&D fantasy.

... good for the mass marketability of D&D, good for the game. I've come to accept that what's best for my D&D game, ultimately, is the continued widespread success of D&D.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Crap, this thread is going to move too fast for me to keep up with it at work.

That is a big disappointment.

DogBackward, I particularly like your thinking.

 

[WhatGravitas]

It sounds to me like you are positing changing to the AE system just because you can. I think that in doing such a port, you lose any value it might have had in doing such a port in the first place.

Yeah. The beauty of the AE system is the unified spellcasting system. If had to port it into D&D (in fact I'm doing it), I'd rather give clerics slow spell progression and access to simple spells, and make these "I'm an embassy of my god, tremble before me!"-abilities class abilities, usable at will, per day, whatever - depending on their power.

And I'd make a bunch of class abilities to select from, similar to the domains.

(In fact, there's precedence in AE - some class abilities (I'm looking at you, Akashic, Runethane and Witch) are similar to normal spells, but cannot be duplicated by spells.)

 

[Psion]

Yeah. The beauty of the AE system is the unified spellcasting system. If had to port it into D&D (in fact I'm doing it), I'd rather give clerics slow spell progression and access to simple spells, and make these "I'm an embassy of my god, tremble before me!"-abilities class abilities, usable at will, per day, whatever - depending on their power.

And I'd make a bunch of class abilities to select from, similar to the domains.

(In fact, there's precedence in AE - some class abilities (I'm looking at you, Akashic, Runethane and Witch) are similar to normal spells, but cannot be duplicated by spells.)

Massaging around class abilities to make the heart of the difference is something I can get on board with. In fact, one of my persistent disappointments with the cleric was that clerics representing deities with vastly different spheres of influence were so similar. If you could make clerics of different faiths as different as different AE witches, that would be an improvement.