Will the Magic System be shown the door?

[Lord Zardoz]

I like the idea that reserve feats introduced. Allowing a given spell slot to grant a low impact, unlimited use ability, but also allowing you to basically blow it all in one shot for the big effect right when you need it.

But I am also reasonably satisfied with the way things work at the moment, and I am in no rush for a new edition.

In any event, I simply want any new edition of the game to add more opposed rolls and fewer modifiers.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

At the most basic level, you have a mana pool that regenerates at the rate of one per round, as long as you don't cast a spell in that round. Simple spells cost a certain amount of mana, and consist of the simple, easy-to-use effects that aren't a big deal if they can be done all day (albeit with a rest period of a few round sin between to let your mana regenerate), such as simple damage, defense, and such things.

Then you have Complex spells, which do the more powerful or bigger effect. These include Cure X spells, summoning spells, Polymorph, and the other big ones, as well as any spell with a casting time of longer than one round (because it makes sense... they take longer to cast because they're... complex spels). The thing is, that any Mana spent on a Complex spell isn't regained until you get your 8 hours of rest.

It comes together with both ideas. You can do the basic stuff all you want, with a few rounds of rest in between. But you still have to manage your resources when using the bigger, more widely effective spells. Not only because you won't be able to use the Complex spells but so many times a day, but also because using Complex spells means you have less Mana left to use your Simple spells, as well. Best of both worlds, as it were.

You could also adapt this format to work with spell slots.

Have you read The Book of Nine Swords? I'll phrase my thoughts, sort of, in terms of BoNS.

(And I just have to throw this thought in since my brain is racing-- possibly the most important resource available to PCs, particularly in high level play, is the action. There is a lot you can do to balance combat encounters just with managing the resource of actions. The recent article about "The Big Six" magic items touches on this tangentially.)

To continue:

Simple spells are either always ready, or can be refreshed in a simple way, possibly not even requiring a significant action to do so.

Complex spells either cannot be refreshed until the end of the encounter, or must be refreshed using a significant action.

Exotic spells (to continue your format) cannot be refreshed more than once per day. If you ready an Exotic spell into one of your spell slots, you get to use it once per day.

Generally speaking, as a designer, I am afraid of spell point systems, because of the tendency to "go nova" as Merric pointed out. They just never really work very well in tabletop play, IMO/IME.

On the other hand, they are very familiar to today's generation of computer RPG gamers. That's a big plus.

EDIT: Can someone give me an example of a reserve feat or tell me which WOTC product introduced them?

EDIT2: You could remove healing spells from the "spell list" entirely and only allow them to be cast by spontaneous conversion. Any readied spell (ie, spell slot) can be converted to a healing spell at any time, removing the prior spell from readied status until the next time the spellcaster can ready spells.

 

[satori01]

Absolutely. A shift between psuedo-Vancian and some other system might be waved off as a background detail, but the arcane/divine division is pretty much a core D&D metasetting element.

Only in terms of flavor, and the mechanics of whether you know all the spells on your list or if you only know some. AE solves the spell list issue be equalizing the effect. Staves and Wands ignore whether you are an Arcane or Divine Caster, why should scrolls not as well?

The Flavor comes from the gods granting your power and ASF chance.
The gods directly granting spells has a lot of flavor, but is not a necessary assumption even now of Divine Spells, it also tends to mitigate questions of faith w/o some tortured reasonings...ie is Bob a heretic?.....well he is still casting spells, so Pelor must still approve....
that or he is having another intermediary grant the power.

Frankly I would argue ASF is not needed today, and penalizes Arcane Casters. Divine Magic is no longer limited to 7th level spells, Clerics are no longer just walking Cure Light wounds potions, and Druids have one of the best spell lists in the game if you include Spell Compendium. Like AE you can simply state what armor, or focus requirements each class has in the spell casting section.

I do not see Arcane/Divine divide to be a necessary component. Sacred Cow, yes maybe, but one that does not add anything essential.

 

[satori01]

You could also adapt this format to work with spell slots.

Have you read The Book of Nine Swords? I'll phrase my thoughts, sort of, in terms of BoNS.

(And I just have to throw this thought in since my brain is racing-- possibly the most important resource available to PCs, particularly in high level play, is the action. There is a lot you can do to balance combat encounters just with managing the resource of actions. The recent article about "The Big Six" magic items touches on this tangentially.)

To continue:

Simple spells are either always ready, or can be refreshed in a simple way, possibly not even requiring a significant action to do so.

Complex spells either cannot be refreshed until the end of the encounter, or must be refreshed using a significant action.

Exotic spells (to continue your format) cannot be refreshed more than once per day. If you ready an Exotic spell into one of your spell slots, you get to use it once per day.

Generally speaking, as a designer, I am afraid of spell point systems, because of the tendency to "go nova" as Merric pointed out. They just never really work very well in tabletop play, IMO/IME.

On the other hand, they are very familiar to today's generation of computer RPG gamers. That's a big plus.

EDIT: Can someone give me an example of a reserve feat or tell me which WOTC product introduced them?

I like this idea, I like it alot. Still maintains a familiar flavor, and adds an interesting layer of resource management. Do you load up on easy to use swift recharge spells, or alter the world, drop the bomb exotics.

 

[GlassJaw]

EDIT2: You could remove healing spells from the "spell list" entirely and only allow them to be cast by spontaneous conversion. Any readied spell (ie, spell slot) can be converted to a healing spell at any time, removing the prior spell from readied status until the next time the spellcaster can ready spells.

Healing spells are one issue that would have to be dealt with in a per encounter system, along with any other spell that is normally cast outside of a combat encounter: info gather magic (scrying, divinations, etc), travel magic (teleport, overland flight, levitate, spider climb), or utility magic (passwall, stone shape, move earth, etc).

A spellpoint/manapool system does address these types of spells.

I'm not sure I have too much of a problem with the "go nova" scenario either, because you have to assume the enemies are going to be doing that all the time and the players will only be doing it in the "big boss battle". Again, this is common in MMO's (in MMO's, enemy casters usually have unlimited spell points as well).

A spellpoint/manapool system isn't without flaws but it does address many issues a per encounter magic system has.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

It just occurred to me that in 3 sessions of play (over 12 hours) our low-level wizard has yet to cast a single spell. Now granted, he's one of a party of seven, so he hasn't been critical to our survival, but is there any doubt he'd rather be slinging spells than firing his crossbow?

Do wizard players really get off on such austere resource management?

Is Vancian resource management really that sacred?

 

[Mercule]

But I like the Vancian magic system with spell slots!

Why is everyone out to change the things about D&D I like?

Myself, I hate all x/day mechanics. Of course, I tend to think x/encounter mechanics are one of the few things worse than x/day.

I don't like it with barbarian rage. I don't like it with bardic songs. I don't like it with Vancian magic. I don't like it with Bo9S. I don't like it with spell/psionic points.

My preferrence would be either a skill system or pay-to-play. Pay-to-play could be XP, hp, materials, fatigue, sanity, or something I haven't thought of. Mix the two for all I care. Just get rid of slots.

If you have to use slots (for game balance, ease of play, etc.) then spell points are the best way to go because they are atomic enough that they don't stand out quite as badly.

I understand that slots are easy to balance and play. That's why I buy games from professional game designers, though -- build mechanics that I couldn't come up with in my spare time, and do it well. I also understand that some people like the flavor of the Vancian magic. But, from the small amount of Vance's work I've read, there is no bloody way I want to emulate anything he does.

Vancian magic was one of the elements that finally got me to drop AD&D in the early 1990s. It is probably the part of the system that still vexes me the most (in competition are cookie-cutter clerics and heavily armored priests of peace and love). I say "good riddance" to Vancian magic if it goes away -- at least so long as it's not replaced by x/encounter.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Absolutely. A shift between psuedo-Vancian and some other system might be waved off as a background detail, but the arcane/divine division is pretty much a core D&D metasetting element.

You can have that divide, and still let arcane casters heal (bards for example). I think doing away with the divine requirement would be a nice touch. Give clerics better healing, auras, etc, but let wizards crank out piddly heals to help after the battle.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

It just occurred to me that in 3 sessions of play (over 12 hours) our low-level wizard has yet to cast a single spell. Now granted, he's one of a party of seven, so he hasn't been critical to our survival, but is there any doubt he'd rather be slinging spells than firing his crossbow?

A long time ago we let wizards just shoot a magic bolt that worked about like a crossbow (and got slightly better as they leveled). Kind of like a mini reserve feat. It made them much more thematic than plinking with their crossbow each round.

 

[Rothe]

That's right. (It's a term I picked up from the Battletech CCG, though it probably predates that). Psionics is even more dependent on the four encounters per day than Vancian magic is. If you only have one encounter in a day, then the ability to pour points into powers makes the Psion much stronger than any other character, who are more measured in their output.

Cheers!

I think your taking one implementation of a "spell point" concept and saying because it didn't work it can't work. Simply not the case, at least with what we've been using for the last 13 years.

If the system (1) had a chance of failure that increases as you put more points into it (and said points are wasted if you fail); even more so if (2) failure damaged the caster proportional to the power put in; and/or (3) you didn't recharge your spell points overnight no matter how many you had to regain (e.g., if you did a mighty "alpha strike" it may take a week to regain all those ppoints); and/or (4) you balance the spell points given (with fully considering such tactics) for the level of power it's no big deal. You may have to rework the spells seriously, remove inscreases in power with level (since that's what spell points or for) and generally decrease the base power of spells so there is a choice between many weaker spells or end up casting fewer spells that have the current power level.

What you describe of the psionics seems to have no balance or downside in casting spells.