Will the Magic System be shown the door?
- Thread starter Mark CMG
- Start date
Brennin Magalus
First Post
morbiczer said:
I would be content if sorcerers supplanted wizards completely.
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
Mark CMG said:
I know what I would like to see replace it -- extemporaneous magic in the vein of that found in Legends of the Samurai by RPG Objects (or, possibly, in the vein of Iron Heroes). Either way, casting by rote is such a poor fit for nearly all fantasy other than The Dying Earth and D&D-specific worlds that it needs to go. Ditto the spell hurling warrior priest class (i.e., the Cleric) which is largely unique to D&D.
Hussar
Legend
Just to add to the list:
The Belgariad - David Eddings
Chronicles of Corum - Michael Moorcock
I'm sure there are more.
Honestly, the best option IMO I've seen is the warlock/binder blend for base caster. That would make for a sweet combo.
Actually, a warlock/shadowcaster blend would also be very cool as well. Perhaps a combo of all three. Base abilities usuable every round, bigger shots available sometimes, but, every caster follows a fixed "path" through similar style spells - shadow, elemental, whatever.
Now how's that for some flavourful casters?
Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
Michael Silverbane said:
Hmmm...
Well I suppose I could respond to that two ways.
One, I could go off for a while, crank out a PDF, charge you a couple of bucks for my work, and hope that the final product meets your expectations.
Or... You could splinter off the thread somewhere (say, House Rules, or the Bad Axe forum) and we can all hash it out together and everybody wins. I'll be happy to contribute the first substantive post-- a first pass, if you will-- if there's interest.
WayneLigon
Adventurer
Arkhandus said:
With the exception of Dilvish, all of the ones mentioned should be able to be found in any chain bookstore day in and day out; I don't think it gets much more 'mainstream' than that. You can't ever go wrong with expanding your reading to the wider range of 'actual' (Non D&D)fantasy novels, along with modern magic, horror and detective fiction (there are quite a few series of detective novels set in the middle ages, the Cadfael novels being the most well-known. Nothing beats them for easy access verisimlitude).
The Media forum frequently has lists of books and suggestions for further reading. An excellent jumping-off point is the SFF Suggested Reading List. (The best part about this is that it's an ongoing list that is updated regularly). That should keep you busy for awhile.
Last edited:
Henry
Autoexreginated
OK, several responses to track, so I'll try to deal with them point by point. If I sound hostile at all, let me know, as I'm dealing with an external irritant this morning...
If hit points were limited, then that would be true, but (1) taking away the role of healer from the cleric would remove a vital role that's been there since the very beginning of the game; it would almost be like taking away the fighter's ability to swing a weapon. (2) having hit points able to run out would defeat the purpose of streamlining to "per encounter" design in the first place, namely that main complain that people don't want to have to stop and rest, because rest is boring. Why stop them for hit points if you're going to keep their spell capacity strong all the time? After all, some of the party won't be as damaged as the others, and ready to keep going, while others will be hanging on a thread and wanting to stop. It's the same problem all over again. (3) In my opinion, having hit points being the only limiting factor is kind of boring in and of itself. Admittedly, I've love it if the only thing my car ever had to stop for was an oil change, and never have to gas up, change tires, check antifreeze, etc.
but it seems kind of vanilla to me, like running an all-fighter game where the only opponents are fighters, too.
I like clerics as more than just healers, but I like them for their healing aspects, too. The fact that they are MORE than healers doesn't mean that I don't want them to be healers, too...
In the case of magical fantasy listed, I would posit that just because you don't have people running out of steam doesn't mean they don't USE steam. Even in black company, spells were draining, but powerful mages didn't use as much energy to cast as others did (the Black Company RPG reflects that pretty well - hell, it takes a high-level mage just to cast a decent fireball spell!) Even if Harry Dresden never runs out, as noted, he DOES complain, and in game terms his player would have enough foresight to hold back a bit of power so that he was never totally out.
To me, a spellcaster who plays it cagy makes for a more interesting story than one who never seems to run out of power, and lobs powerful effects around all day.
I'll also say that I wouldn't mind a spell-point-ish system, but with small pools that regenerate over time. It's not "non-vancian" I don't mind, it's the "you get it back in a minute" that I dislike immensely. People were asking why I assume that all your resources, hit points included, would regenerate? It's because that's the next logical step in game design if everything else regenerates. I'd rather not HAVE to take an enemy down in one shot, because he's going to be fully healed and resourced if he escaped combat for 30 minutes. If I attack the lich/evil cleric/fighter, and I know I've hurt him bad, and he gets away, I want to be able to pursue him, chase him, and finish him off. I don't want to have to go through that again if he gets to safety for a breather. Per day, I can do that if I can; per encounter, he's ready to go, so am I, and we do the same thing all over again.
That's my feeling on it.
JohnSnow said:
If hit points were limited, then that would be true, but (1) taking away the role of healer from the cleric would remove a vital role that's been there since the very beginning of the game; it would almost be like taking away the fighter's ability to swing a weapon. (2) having hit points able to run out would defeat the purpose of streamlining to "per encounter" design in the first place, namely that main complain that people don't want to have to stop and rest, because rest is boring. Why stop them for hit points if you're going to keep their spell capacity strong all the time? After all, some of the party won't be as damaged as the others, and ready to keep going, while others will be hanging on a thread and wanting to stop. It's the same problem all over again. (3) In my opinion, having hit points being the only limiting factor is kind of boring in and of itself. Admittedly, I've love it if the only thing my car ever had to stop for was an oil change, and never have to gas up, change tires, check antifreeze, etc.
but it seems kind of vanilla to me, like running an all-fighter game where the only opponents are fighters, too.I like clerics as more than just healers, but I like them for their healing aspects, too. The fact that they are MORE than healers doesn't mean that I don't want them to be healers, too...
In the case of magical fantasy listed, I would posit that just because you don't have people running out of steam doesn't mean they don't USE steam. Even in black company, spells were draining, but powerful mages didn't use as much energy to cast as others did (the Black Company RPG reflects that pretty well - hell, it takes a high-level mage just to cast a decent fireball spell!) Even if Harry Dresden never runs out, as noted, he DOES complain, and in game terms his player would have enough foresight to hold back a bit of power so that he was never totally out.
To me, a spellcaster who plays it cagy makes for a more interesting story than one who never seems to run out of power, and lobs powerful effects around all day.
I'll also say that I wouldn't mind a spell-point-ish system, but with small pools that regenerate over time. It's not "non-vancian" I don't mind, it's the "you get it back in a minute" that I dislike immensely. People were asking why I assume that all your resources, hit points included, would regenerate? It's because that's the next logical step in game design if everything else regenerates. I'd rather not HAVE to take an enemy down in one shot, because he's going to be fully healed and resourced if he escaped combat for 30 minutes. If I attack the lich/evil cleric/fighter, and I know I've hurt him bad, and he gets away, I want to be able to pursue him, chase him, and finish him off. I don't want to have to go through that again if he gets to safety for a breather. Per day, I can do that if I can; per encounter, he's ready to go, so am I, and we do the same thing all over again.
That's my feeling on it.
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