Will there be a 4.75 a la Pathfinder?

Emerikol

Adventurer
I am not taking it personally in the sense that I dont think WOTC owes me any specific duties. But in a general sense it does I think it is unfortunate to exclude any significant (and recent) customer base - especially when modularity was meant to be a key feature of the new edition. But of course cutting out 4e playstyles is a key selling point for aiming at many 3e and OSR gamers. I think you are right - this choice has been made - and it was made very early in the process for DDN.

It will be interesting to see how much 4e ideas can be drawn in through the idea of modularity - I guess my key concern here is to keep 4e ideas and innovations alive going forward. I dont think 4e was perfect - thus I am interested in efforts to improve 4e ideas.

I would agree and disagree at the same exact time. I would agree with you more than I disagree though. Still the healing systems of 5e are far more like 4e than they are like pre-4e. Not the same no but they are built on the same foundation. Dissociative mechanics are far more common in the core in 5e too which was common in 4e. They were not nearly so prevalent in pre-4e games.

So it is a mix. But I see enough 4e in 5e to poison it for me by default. Like you I'm watching to see if the DMG gives me a way out.

I posted here because I am sympathetic to fairness and I think it would be great if someone could offer some 4e support like Paizo did 3e support. I'm not a hater of 4e people just the game itself.
 

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Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
I am not taking it personally in the sense that I dont think WOTC owes me any specific duties. But in a general sense it does I think it is unfortunate to exclude any significant (and recent) customer base - especially when modularity was meant to be a key feature of the new edition. But of course cutting out 4e playstyles is a key selling point for aiming at many 3e and OSR gamers. I think you are right - this choice has been made - and it was made very early in the process for DDN.

It will be interesting to see how much 4e ideas can be drawn in through the idea of modularity - I guess my key concern here is to keep 4e ideas and innovations alive going forward. I dont think 4e was perfect - thus I am interested in efforts to improve 4e ideas.

It was clear from comments made by Mike Mearls and Rob Schwalb, in particular, that they were not fans of 4E. And Mike's early 4E contributions, Keep on the Shadowfell and Pyramid of Shadows, were so egeregiously bad that there is a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that the contributed to Pathfinder's success.

Considering these two played fairly significant roles in the creation of 5E, it's no great surprise that 4E is being left behind. And it apparently does make business sense. 4E is very different to other editions of D&D - although, I would also argue, a logical development - and 5E was created by and for fans of older editions. Clearly that's where they see the market.

(snip) I posted here because I am sympathetic to fairness and I think it would be great if someone could offer some 4e support like Paizo did 3e support. I'm not a hater of 4e people just the game itself.

It's not really about fairness. D&D is a commercial product and someone will create products for 4E if there is sufficient demand. Unfortunately, between 4E's apparent unpopularity and the sheer assbackwardness of the GSL, there's just no interest in chasing the 4E customer base. (And the online tools also dampen any interest from third parties.)

And I am glad you're not a hater of 4E people: that's very big of you.
 

Emerikol

Adventurer
It's not really about fairness. D&D is a commercial product and someone will create products for 4E if there is sufficient demand. Unfortunately, between 4E's apparent unpopularity and the sheer assbackwardness of the GSL, there's just no interest in chasing the 4E customer base. (And the online tools also dampen any interest from third parties.)

And I am glad you're not a hater of 4E people: that's very big of you.

I think 4e's "philosophy" could survive in a game even if the exact 4e game does not. 13th Age is philosophically a lot like 4e though it takes a big step back from the tactical grid.

No need for the snark at the end. My only point is that I don't feel hatred of an inanimate object is any big deal and it does not reflect on other people liking that same object. Lot's of people hate asparagus. I love it. I don't feel like the asparagus haters are out to get me.
 


Tony Vargas

Legend
I would agree and disagree at the same exact time. I would agree with you more than I disagree though. Still the healing systems of 5e are far more like 4e than they are like pre-4e. Not the same no but they are built on the same foundation.
Not really, no. The 4e healing system was proportionate, based on healing surges that were, in turn, based on total hit points. While hit points increased, healing surges remained relatively static in number, just growing in proportion.

5e relies primarily on healing magic, as in prior eds, with is non-proportionate healing. So Cure..Wounds spell heals so many dice of damage, and that's that, whether it's a 10 hp scratch on a 100 hp character, a 10 hp potentially-fatal wound on a 6 hp character, the same 10 hps of healing spell fixes it right up - whether you're talking about 5e or 1e (mind you, 1e with optional negative hps in use, of course). Healing spells increase in number and power as you level up, so total healing resources increase in quantity to keep up with character hps.

You could point to HD - a mechanic superficially similar to healing surges, hiding under a classic-D&D name - and claim that their existance somehow includes the 4e system. Even though HD, like spells are non-proportionate and grow in number to keep up with total hps, just like spells, and even though they're not a foundational mechanic. (In 4e, healing uses healing powers use surges as a resource, while in 5e, HD are a separate mechanic that have no bearing on healing magic). So, while they're a nice token gesture, they really don't do the trick. (And, they very easily could have, spells, for instance, could use the target's HD instead of being arbitrarily d8, for instance.)

Dissociative mechanics are far more common in the core in 5e too which was common in 4e. They were not nearly so prevalent in pre-4e games.
Meh. "Dissociative" is bunk. Just a disingenuous way of selectively applying realism arguments against elements a fantasy game where realism makes a poor criterion, anyway.


But I see enough 4e in 5e to poison it for me by default.
I don't think it's fair to blame 5e for your low tolerance.


I think 4e's "philosophy" could survive in a game even if the exact 4e game does not. 13th Age is philosophically a lot like 4e though it takes a big step back from the tactical grid.
"Love letter to D&D" or no, 13A takes a hard left onto the indie side of things. I can see how you'd hate indie games as much as you hate 4e. After all, neither meets the exacting definition of D&D which is the only thing you're willing to accept. But, just because they're both outside your narrow range of preferences doesn't mean they're both the same, nor even similar.

13A /does/ do an excellent job of supporting non-grid play. Heck, if 'da grid' were the major reason h4ters claim it is for rejecting 4e, they'd be flocking to 13A for it's efficient gridless handling of movement, positioning and AEs - something 5e, like classic D&D, doesn't offer.

I suppose you could draw conflicting conclusions about 4e's "philosophy" - ultimately it was a game created by a team of people, and strongly influenced by top-down corporate directives.

Whatever the philosophies, forces, and exigencies that shaped it, 4e turned out to be a fairly clear, balanced and playable game - more so, by no small margin, than the editions that preceded it. If 5e could merely rise to the same level of quality, I'd be quite pleased with it - regardless of the philosophy it used to get there or the preferences/styles it might slightly favor (it couldn't much favor one without becoming imbalanced, afterall).

No need for the snark at the end. My only point is that I don't feel hatred of an inanimate object is any big deal and it does not reflect on other people liking that same object. Lot's of people hate asparagus. I love it. I don't feel like the asparagus haters are out to get me.
You don't see a lot of "asparagus haters" getting onto vegetarian forums and insisting that every recipe that includes asparagus be taken down unless it explicitly includes non-asparagus alternatives. Nor do you see them succeeding to such an extent that anyone wanting asparagus is going to have to produce it in secretive grow houses for fear of legal action.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
It was clear from comments made by Mike Mearls and Rob Schwalb, in particular, that they were not fans of 4E. And Mike's early 4E contributions, Keep on the Shadowfell and Pyramid of Shadows, were so egeregiously bad that there is a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that the contributed to Pathfinder's success.
It's obvious from a few comments that Mearls hates specific 4e-isms, like the Warlord. But it's quite a stretch from that to actively disliking a game he worked on for it's entire run - and helmed for the last few years. (I mean, you'd have to figure that he was actively trying to wreck 4e rather than save it through the post-Essentials years...)

Anyway, the excuse offered for those modules has generally been that they were done & off to the printers /before/ the 4e rules were finalized. So, mere sloppiness, rather than active sabotage.

It's not really about fairness. D&D is a commercial product and someone will create products for 4E if there is sufficient demand.
The demand would have to be huge to outweigh the risk of WotC pulling the GSL (which it can at any time). In contrast, the OGL is irrevocable. Thus, even if the d20 market were a fraction the size of the 4e market, it'd still make more sense for smaller 3pps to keep producing OGL rather than GSL products. What's more, even if such rampant demand did materialize, it'd only make it that much more likely that WotC would pull the license, to undercut any competition trying to use it.

So, really, the chance of a 3pp picking up and supporting 4e through a Pathfinder-like product is nil. It would be such a long-shot legal gamble that no one would be foolish enough to risk it. You might get a fan-based product, but if there were any risk of it gaining any notice or following, WotC would just C&D it into oblivion.

One thing WotC (or rather, Hasbro) wanted out of rolling rev in 2008 was to kill the OGL, and take back control of the property. They obviously failed at the first, but they made sure of the second.
 

The demand would have to be huge to outweigh the risk of WotC pulling the GSL (which it can at any time). In contrast, the OGL is irrevocable. Thus, even if the d20 market were a fraction the size of the 4e market, it'd still make more sense for smaller 3pps to keep producing OGL rather than GSL products. What's more, even if such rampant demand did materialize, it'd only make it that much more likely that WotC would pull the license, to undercut any competition trying to use it.

This uses a flawed assumption. That any Pathfinder-style approach for 4E would use the GSL rather than the OGL. You can't copyright game mechanics - and 90% of the rules you need are already under the OGL (4E is very much a d20 game). Which means that all you actually need is a 4Eish game that doesn't do anything to copy trade dress and is written under and using the OGL. (Think all the supplements in the 80s that were compatible with most major RPGs - i.e. D&D). For where I am, here's the warlord class.
 

As somebody mentioned before, to my mind this is what 13th Age is. It would also be nice to think that, eventually, all editions of D&D and their supplements will become available on pdf. Beyond that, honestly, I don’t think there is a big enough market for it.
 

As somebody mentioned before, to my mind this is what 13th Age is. It would also be nice to think that, eventually, all editions of D&D and their supplements will become available on pdf. Beyond that, honestly, I don’t think there is a big enough market for it.

13A is not 4e and misses about half the good points of 4e. It gets the evocative characters but misses both the balance and the tactical side.

As for there not being a big enough market, compared to what? I don't think there's a Paizo-sized market. I think that 13A is currently top of the hot RPGs on ENWorld and more popular than the OSR combined. Any non-WotC RPG company would love to have those numbers.
 

Raith5

Adventurer
Not really, no. The 4e healing system was proportionate, based on healing surges that were, in turn, based on total hit points. While hit points increased, healing surges remained relatively static in number, just growing in proportion.

5e relies primarily on healing magic, as in prior eds, with is non-proportionate healing. So Cure..Wounds spell heals so many dice of damage, and that's that, whether it's a 10 hp scratch on a 100 hp character, a 10 hp potentially-fatal wound on a 6 hp character, the same 10 hps of healing spell fixes it right up - whether you're talking about 5e or 1e (mind you, 1e with optional negative hps in use, of course). Healing spells increase in number and power as you level up, so total healing resources increase in quantity to keep up with character hps.

You could point to HD - a mechanic superficially similar to healing surges, hiding under a classic-D&D name - and claim that their existance somehow includes the 4e system. Even though HD, like spells are non-proportionate and grow in number to keep up with total hps, just like spells, and even though they're not a foundational mechanic. (In 4e, healing uses healing powers use surges as a resource, while in 5e, HD are a separate mechanic that have no bearing on healing magic). So, while they're a nice token gesture, they really don't do the trick. (And, they very easily could have, spells, for instance, could use the target's HD instead of being arbitrarily d8, for instance.).

I have to agree I find hit dice a ridiculous use of an old D&D term. The term is even more "Dissociative" than healing surge and the non-proportionate scaling of it makes it loose its original elegance. However, I am sure there will be some optional rule in the 5e DMG that enables it to be used in combat etc. I think this will be a big issue for those who played 4e and liked martial classes and martial based campaigns.
 

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