Will there be a 4.75 a la Pathfinder?

[Raith5]

YOU, my friend, are an optimist!

To have a game with deep, tactical combat like 4e, you need to build the classes for it from the ground up. Even a very robust set of alternate rules is not going to get you there. And I don't think we're going to see a set of robust alternate rules. I think we're going to get three pages and a sidebar in the DMG.

But maybe I'm just a pessimist.

I think the worrying thing is that there has been little attempt to engage with their former 4e customers and say "hey, we are thinking of you" and there will be some 4e options present. I mean there are clearly some 4e elements like at will cantrips present (even though these are also in pathfinder I think) but i would think they would try to do more to keep their most recent customers in the tent.

 

[Emerikol]

I don't think they could stop a game that used new fluff for everything except for what could be gotten from the OGL.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

I think the worrying thing is that there has been little attempt to engage with their former 4e customers and say "hey, we are thinking of you" and there will be some 4e options present. I mean there are clearly some 4e elements like at will cantrips present (even though these are also in pathfinder I think) but i would think they would try to do more to keep their most recent customers in the tent.

I think they've simply worked out that we represent a fairly insignificant minority and they're better off focussing on the rest of their customer base.

Personally, though, that doesn't bother me. I've got the game I want. I've got tonnes of material from playing D&D for 33+ years. (The only thing I am missing is an offline version of the online tools.) If WotC chooses to focus on other customers, it really doesn't affect me, nor do I take it as a personal slight.

 

[Manbearcat]

I think they've simply worked out that we represent a fairly insignificant minority and they're better off focussing on the rest of their customer base.

Personally, though, that doesn't both me. I've got the game I want. I've got tonnes of material from playing D&D for 33+ years. (The only thing I am missing is an offline version of the online tools.) If WotC chooses to focus on other customers, it really doesn't affect me, nor do I take it as a personal slight.

I'm pretty much of the same position but with some minor nuance. I'm not sure that they've worked out that we're a fairly insignificant minority. A minority (like pretty much all editions) to be sure. How insignificant I don't know. However, what I think they have worked out is that (1) we are a minority, (2) there will be much hand-ringing by (visceral) detractors if they invest too much of our minority tastes into the base archetecture of 5e, (3) they're sitting on a relative goldmine in DDI that requires little to no overhead to maintain. They don't even have to create new Dungeon nor Dragon material for many to maintain their subscription!

Like you though, it doesn't bother me really at all. I'll continue to play 4e and several other games that I enjoy. My guess is that there is a very generous contingent of 4e players that are of the same general disposition as you and I. It may be that our gaming interests are more diverse than your average D&D player and that lack of being utterly wedded to the brand/legacy/system inclines us toward a more detached approach to this edition's transition away from our gaming tastes. Compared to the ugly and extended (meaning years and years) edition warring that took place in the transition from 2e to 3e and from 3e to 4e, I've only seen fewer pockets of 5e outrage and antipathy from 4e players and what I've seen has been lesser in intensity (or at least commitment). On the whole, I think THE FIGHT FOR THE VERY SOUL OF D&D might move less units with your average 4e player.

Or, it might be because DDI is still active. I'd be curious as to the response if/when that plug is pulled.

 

[Dungeoneer]

Or, it might be because DDI is still active. I'd be curious as to the response if/when that plug is pulled.

It would be stupid of them to pull it and cut off a free revenue stream and anger a significant part of their player base.

Which is why I'm confident at some point they will do exactly that.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

(snip) Or, it might be because DDI is still active. I'd be curious as to the response if/when that plug is pulled.

Yeah, that is my one major "fear". Old school thinking be damned, I like having the DDi tools. I am cognisant of the fact that both the Character Builder and the Compendium have been cloned for offline use but I live in this really vain hope that I might be able to buy legitimate copies once DDi is taken down.

After all, as [MENTION=91777]Dungeoneer[/MENTION] said...

It would be stupid of them to pull it and cut off a free revenue stream and anger a significant part of their player base.

Which is why I'm confident at some point they will do exactly that.

... I have no doubt that the tools will be removed, probably before the end of next year. However, even when that happens I don't expect to be ranting on these or other forums. It's just a business decision.

 

[MoonSong]

I don't think they could stop a game that used new fluff for everything except for what could be gotten from the OGL.

Yes, exactly my thoughts (and hopes). To more or less generic classes like fighter, rogue, assassin and sorcerer add completely new classes like Charmer, Lyrist, Sealcaster, Empath and Pangu (Empowered). And with a rooster of races consisting of Human (subraces Mundane, Borean, Nephilim, Immortal, Demmeri, Florey and Nymph), Atlantean, Inhuman, Prime and Lippet in a pre-industrial pre-victorian/sword and sandal/pre-renasceanse/semimodern multisetting. I doubt WotC will care too much about such a product if it abodes explicitly by what mechanical terms can be found in the OGL, even when it might use the same exact (or almost) math as 4e.

 

[ppaladin123]

Here is the link to my ENworld Complete 4th thread, and I'll be happy to send anyone links to the actual google doc pdfs via PM.

PM me! Your mailbox is full!

 

[Raith5]

I think they've simply worked out that we represent a fairly insignificant minority and they're better off focussing on the rest of their customer base.

Personally, though, that doesn't bother me. I've got the game I want. I've got tonnes of material from playing D&D for 33+ years. (The only thing I am missing is an offline version of the online tools.) If WotC chooses to focus on other customers, it really doesn't affect me, nor do I take it as a personal slight.

I am not taking it personally in the sense that I dont think WOTC owes me any specific duties. But in a general sense it does I think it is unfortunate to exclude any significant (and recent) customer base - especially when modularity was meant to be a key feature of the new edition. But of course cutting out 4e playstyles is a key selling point for aiming at many 3e and OSR gamers. I think you are right - this choice has been made - and it was made very early in the process for DDN.

It will be interesting to see how much 4e ideas can be drawn in through the idea of modularity - I guess my key concern here is to keep 4e ideas and innovations alive going forward. I dont think 4e was perfect - thus I am interested in efforts to improve 4e ideas.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm steadily working on my own retroclone - Trifold 4E. I've a core ruleset that fits on a double sided trifold - but for the Fantasy version (as opposed to the Super Sentai version and the Tag Team Pro Wrestling version) there's another trifold needed. I currently have two classes, so it's very much a WIP. The classes are the Fighter and the Innate Mage (in other words a magic user centred round having one trick). There is going to be a Vancian Mage class (with a few cantrips) - but it will be based on the oD&D wizard not the 3.X wizard. Your spells are powerful - but treasure.

Classes take one Trifold per tier - and should be in a matter of minutes, with most classes having non-tactical options. There are several reasons for this. Notably:

1: To make things newbie friendly.
2: So character creation takes minutes for anyone.
3: So we don't get everyone having access to literally thousands of feats. (Feats have been merged with Utility Powers).
4: To kill reliance on DDI. I don't have those resources - in the hobby few do.

I also have the makings of an FAQ that's currently ongoing design notes. But this is very definitely a work in progress, and I really must write down the Quick Combat System. (Quick version: Damage goes straight through to Recoveries/Healing Surges, bypassing Stun/Hit Points).