Will you try the new "Death & Dying" rules now?

[Plane Sailing]

Another thing that I find interesting about this new system is that PCs are MORE likely to die when in negatives in 4E than in 3.5 in many cases.

The only time in 3E where the chance of dying was greater was when the PC was hit for high negatives. But at -1 to -5 hit points, the chances to die in 4E are greater than in 3.5.

In 3.5, a PC at -1 hit points had a 61% chance of self stabilizing. A PC at -5 hit points had a 41% chance of self stabilizing.

In 4E, a PC at -whatever has a 14.26% chance of surviving and a 12.5% chance of dying after 3 rounds. After 4 rounds, it becomes 17.9% chance of survival and ~28.2% chance of dying. 5 rounds, 20.6% and ~40%. Overall, the odds are about 35% of self survival and 65% of death (shy of fellow PC assistance). And these odds are identical, regardless of whether the PC is at -1 or -50.

So, 1 unconsciousness in 8, a PC will die if a fellow PC does not get to him in 3 rounds. 1 in 6 if not within 4 rounds. For a TPK or near TPK, each PC has a 2 in 3 chance of dying.

This hardly agrees with Andy's statement:

Among other problems, this also meant that characters effectively had no way to “lose” a combat except by being killed. This removes a lot of dramatic possibilities for the story—for instance, the classic scene of the characters being captured and thrown in a cell from which they have to escape using only their wits and a pack of chewing gum (or whatever).

If the math doesn't work for unconsciousness (i.e. most PCs will die, not survive a TPK for such a classic scene), what other math does not work in 4E?

I think you've hit the nail on the head with another one of the problems of this suggested system, in the way that it *completely fails* to meet Andy's criteria.

The current system gives you a chance of stabilizing so that you are unconscious but not going to die. Classic fodder for being captured and thrown in a cell, no?

This proposed system that they talk about here doesn't have any room for remaining unconscious! You are either getting worse, still dying or recovered, you can never stabilise while unconscious and remain unconscious, ready to be captured (or carried away by your mates).

I'm also astonished at the negative hp buffer they are suggesting. Taking the 15th level fighter in the example with 120hp and doesn't die until he reaches -60 - can you picture him falling unconscious at 0hp and a group of peasants hacking at him with their swords again and again and again yet he still won't die!

</ hyperbole >

 

[KarinsDad]

There's a sport called "boxing"...

I think it shows the possibilities of going down for the count... and not!

This is real damage we are discussing.

There isn't much of a chance (some, but not much) of an unconscious boxer dying.

With the DND model, the chance is high of dying. The reason it is high is because hit point damage is supposed to be modeling damage, not unconsciousness.

 

[Herzog]

I voted 'No', for several reasons:

1. I don't like the mechanics.
1.1 Mostly, the auto-heal on a natural 20. Stabilized, yes, healed, no.
1.2 Also, recovering by yourself being better than receiving healing implies that not helping your fallen comerade may actually be better than helping him.
1.3 Last but not least, the three-times rule. Either you get a success, or you fail. I don't like needing to get a success/not get a failure multiple times.
2. I just decided to try out something proposed in the house-rule section. (saving throws equal to negative hp, fail=die, success=don't die, lose 1hp, roll again next turn. success by more than 5 points=stabilise.)

However, if I hadn't just found that house rule, I might be convinced to try it out, although I would probably modify it heavily.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think you've hit the nail on the head with another one of the problems of this suggested system, in the way that it *completely fails* to meet Andy's criteria.

The current system gives you a chance of stabilizing so that you are unconscious but not going to die. Classic fodder for being captured and thrown in a cell, no?

This proposed system that they talk about here doesn't have any room for remaining unconscious! You are either getting worse, still dying or recovered, you can never stabilise while unconscious and remain unconscious, ready to be captured (or carried away by your mates).

Precisely. The model does not match what they want it to match.

Hopefully, some WotC employee will read these boards and realize that, but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm also astonished at the negative hp buffer they are suggesting. Taking the 15th level fighter in the example with 120hp and doesn't die until he reaches -60 - can you picture him falling unconscious at 0hp and a group of peasants hacking at him with their swords again and again and again yet he still won't die!

</ hyperbole >

Actually, this might not really be an issue. The three strikes and you are out aspect of the peasants versus unconscious fighter still apply and there might be other rules that we are unaware of.

Course, the peasants are beating on the unconscious high level Fighter and he suddenly jumps up at 25% of hit points is also implausible.

 

[Derren]

I think your math might be flawed, but I'd love to hear it. I reckon, given infinite time, you recover 27.1% of the time and die 72.9% of the time. So, if you recover to 25% of your hitpoints when you get back up, that means your infinite-time number of HP is 6.78% of your total HP. You could argue that being on less than that number makes it worth trying to kill heal, but the system isn't deterministic. Stochastically, after 6 rounds, you have >50% chance of dying and <25% of recovering (I repeat!), so unless you're sure someone can get to you when you're down 2 strikes, I wouldn't risk stabbing yourself!

As I have said, to have to be sure you have to cast "cure minor wounds" on the target after 2 rounds to prevent him from dieing (unless metagaming knowledge of how many rolls he failed is allowed).
In 4E this tactic might not be necessary as everyone might be ale to heal anyway, but in 3E it saves some real healing spells at the expense of level 0 cure spells which are otherwise useless.

And those who say that this is a DM issue, this is the sort of thinking which has to be done when creating new rules to prevent exploits/abuse. Don't require the DM to rule 0 it (what many new DMs might not do) but prevent such exploits from working in the first place.

 

[FireLance]

This proposed system that they talk about here doesn't have any room for remaining unconscious! You are either getting worse, still dying or recovered, you can never stabilise while unconscious and remain unconscious, ready to be captured (or carried away by your mates).

Actually, the 3.5e translation of the system doesn't allow for unconsciousness after stabilization. It is possible that in the actual 4e version, you stabilize on a natural 20, and remain stable but unconscious if you are out of second winds (or choose not to use one).

 

[ThirdWizard]

This proposed system that they talk about here doesn't have any room for remaining unconscious! You are either getting worse, still dying or recovered, you can never stabilise while unconscious and remain unconscious, ready to be captured (or carried away by your mates).

From the article:

5) A dying character who’s been stabilized (via the Heal skill) doesn’t roll a d20 at the end of his turn unless he takes more damage.

So, if you're stabilized by a Heal check, you're out for the count until, I would guess, you naturally recover HP as per resting rules.

 

[KarinsDad]

I mentioned it in the other thread, but since it's come up here: The hit point recovery on a natural 20 is only in the "Try It Now!" section, and might be an inelegant translation of the actual 4e rule, which could be that on a natural 20, the character actually stabilizes (no further rolls needed) and may use a second wind, if he has any left.

Of course, if you don't like the idea of second wind in the first place, you're not going to like this any better, but otherwise, it's not simply jumping up to 25% full normal hit points because of a die roll. The character is actually expending one of his resources.

Yes. The unconscious character is deciding to spend a resource. Hmmm.

 

[Pinotage]

I also don't see why you need to make a needless attack on the 'design principles of the d20 system' in 4e since this is probably the first real mechanic we've seen.

I should have mentioned that we always used the Fortitude save variant, where you roll a save against a DC determined by the damage dealt. That's a neat system in the sense that it 1) uses a d20, 2) sets a DC governed by a rule, and 3) uses the d20 mechanic of rolling with a modifier against a DC. It's a good mechanic and in compliance with the overall design principles.

4e, by the looks of things is moving away from solid rules and providing guidelines and 'hand-waiving' to stream-line the storytelling aspects of the system. For that it should be commended. But, if you like robust and consistent mechanics, inventing multiple rules for various things is clunky. There's no doubt about it. 3.5e was clunky in its own right, for sure, but 4e seems more so.

The 1/4 HP thing is for the 3e variant, which I guess they think will fit in better with current 3e rules. In 4e it's 1/2 HP, so you have three states: Fine, Bloodied and Dying, all of which cover the same span. I appreciate the houserule based around Con or Fort saves was popular in 3e - but it didn't actually solve the strange lack of symmetry around 0 HP. A fighter with over three hundred hit points basically treated being on anything less than 50 as dying and desperately wanted healing. With the new system the point at which you're unable to fight shifts to this point, so no longer will you be absolutely fine until you take a paltry amount of damage compared to your total survivability. I like this change, some may not, but in my opinion there's nothing clunky about the mechanic, I find it quite elegant.

I understand the idea behind 'second wind', 'bloodied' and the like, but it's just odd seeing that 300 hp fighter lose 300 hp, get a second wind and lo-and-behold he's back up at 150 hp. It's like Rocky IV all over again. Beat the guy to a pulp and then have to do it all over again because of some 'heroic' surge. Some like that, some don't. Perhaps the 1/4 hp thing is not in 4e. but it's in this rule, and as such rather weird. You knock a guy unconscious, he's out for 1 round, and the next thing you know he's on 75 hp and can take another beating. It's just weird.

Pinotage

 

[Derren]

stupid double post