Wish vs. Miracle

[Otterscrubber]

Why is it that an arcane caster must pay 5,000 xp for using this spell in any form and divine casters only pay the xp for essentially the same spell in certain situations? What game balance issue was being addressed by this?

 

[Ottergame]

As far as flavor goes, you can see the Wish as being a cold, neutral force that grants the casters will by payment, while a Miracle is an allied force willing to grant small powers to their faithful servents.

As far as game balance goes, I think they see Wizards as being more flexablity in their high level spell list compared to a cleric, so this helps add a bit more options to the cleric spell line.

 

[Epametheus]

I'd actually houserule that using Wish for spell-duplication costs significantly less than 5000 XP, if any at all.

The worst that can happen with a Miracle is that it just doesn't work (though I guess asking for something really inappropriate could get a priest in trouble with the boss. But it's basically tradition for DMs to screw over players that try to use Wish; the "safe list" in the Wish description is there just so that the spell is usable at all.

As they're writtern, they aren't balanced -- Miracle is straight-out better. Clerics getting a superior version of Wish is probably just another side effect of the "let's make clerics really, really good" movement in 3E.

 

[Stalker0]

also, miracle's are given by a person's god, so there's every right to insist of roleplay reasons for using it. And of course, a god may say your using too many miracles, and not grant them... a wizard always gets something for his wish.

 

[Li Shenron]

also, miracle's are given by a person's god, so there's every right to insist of roleplay reasons for using it. And of course, a god may say your using too many miracles, and not grant them... a wizard always gets something for his wish.

But you also have to take into account the traditional sport of screwing up every Wish by twisting the wording unless perfect. Which God would purposefully twist a Miracle of his Cleric if the PC is basically dedicating all his life to his God's will?

 

[dark2112]

But you also have to take into account the traditional sport of screwing up every Wish by twisting the wording unless perfect. Which God would purposefully twist a Miracle of his Cleric if the PC is basically dedicating all his life to his God's will?

I've always worked wish (since I started DMing in 3.0) this way: You either twist the wording, or you take the xp cost. The old joke of an elf who's lost all his gear wishing for all his **** back, and getting buried in hundreds of years worth of feces, would really annoy a player who just spent 5,000 xp for that effect. I mean, I could get that out of a prestidigitation and some simple illusions...

For the record, the first time I play a caster in a game where my wish is twisted against me, and I pay 5,000 xp for it, is the last time I play a wizard in that game. That'd be akin to getting a finger reattached after an accident, but having to cut your hand off first so they can sew the finger on properly.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

For the record, the first time I play a caster in a game where my wish is twisted against me, and I pay 5,000 xp for it, is the last time I play a wizard in that game.

1) Extend hand, as if to request a high-five.
2) Slap the DM across the face.
3) Repeat as needed.

At this point, I am beginning to believe that this procedure is the only possible way to combat the execrable idea that the only safe way to cast Wish is to hire a lawyer to word it for you. Monkeys' paws can be entertaining in fiction, but they're a stupid, stupid way to play a game, and are a symptom of an adversarial approach between the DM and the players-- and, as all such adversarial situations, the DM can abuse your Wish no matter how perfectly you worded it.

Even originally, the Wish spell was only supposed to be twisted if the caster tried wishing for something well beyond the means of a 9th level spell. As I hear more and more about lawyerific players getting Wishes twisted by malevolent DMs, I am forced to conclude that future descriptions of this spell should be quite explicit that, instead of twisting the Wish, the appopriate response to an outrageous Wish is to have the spell fail.

 

[Li Shenron]

I also think that the original idea behind Wish comes from the Aladdin's tale, where a Wish is asked to some powerful being who in exchange gets to be freed from his prison. This is more in line with Miracle (ask your God) that the Wish spell (who do you ask? magic? the universe?).

IIRC before 3rd edition the Cleric spells were only up to level VII, did Miracle used to be a 7th level spell? How was it? Or there wasn't any Miracle at all before 3.0?

 

[glass]

I also think that the original idea behind Wish comes from the Aladdin's tale, where a Wish is asked to some powerful being who in exchange gets to be freed from his prison. This is more in line with Miracle (ask your God) that the Wish spell (who do you ask? magic? the universe?).

IIRC before 3rd edition the Cleric spells were only up to level VII, did Miracle used to be a 7th level spell? How was it? Or there wasn't any Miracle at all before 3.0?

It didn't exist. Neither did True Res, or most (all?) of the other 8th and 9th level cleric spells.

glass.

 

[the Jester]

I also think that the original idea behind Wish comes from the Aladdin's tale, where a Wish is asked to some powerful being who in exchange gets to be freed from his prison. This is more in line with Miracle (ask your God) that the Wish spell (who do you ask? magic? the universe?).

The traditional 1e/2e answer was that wishes were granted by the closest Power. This is why they're useless in direct conflict with deific-level entities in their home planes.