Wish vs. Miracle

[Senior Bobo]

I agree with the others. The idea is that a Miracle is granted by your patron power who you've been serving presumably faithful for 17+ levels now. Also, what you can ask for is generally limited by the power you follow.

A LG Wizard can, in extreme circumstances, wish to temporarily raise an entire graveyard full of undead to go combat some great evil.

A Cleric of a god dedicated against undead just isn't gonna have that happen with a Miracle.

In the end, it's like all other RP penalties. If the DM chooses not to enforce it, then it's not really a penalty and it's out of balance. To me it makes sense from a 'logical' point of view that miracles are more divine then arcane and should be easier for clerics.

At this point, I am beginning to believe that this procedure is the only possible way to combat the execrable idea that the only safe way to cast Wish is to hire a lawyer to word it for you. Monkeys' paws can be entertaining in fiction, but they're a stupid, stupid way to play a game, and are a symptom of an adversarial approach between the DM and the players-- and, as all such adversarial situations, the DM can abuse your Wish no matter how perfectly you worded it.

This triggered a bad flashback of the last time I ever used a wish in a game. I have to share.

I was playing a level 15 warrior / cavalier type in a 2ed game. As part of the backstory I was tasked with protecting the lives of 2 of the other party members. After a huge encounter with a leiutenant of a BBEG we lived, but my Sun Blade Bastard Sword (named Glory) was disarmed from me and then summarily teleported without error into the Abyss. We did, however, find on the bad guy a ring with 2 wishes.

The friendly wizard npc, obviously speaking for the dm, immediately notes that I could use a wish to get my sword back. I, however, took the loss in stride and announced I was going to go find a decent, nonmagical, bastard sword and we could continue without it, claiming that I'd rather save the 2 wishes to bring back the people under my protection should something bad happen to them. I thought I was being very selfless and all.

For 15 minutes the other players, and finally the dm, essentially demanded I use one wish to get my sword back, claiming I'd need it, saying I wasn't rp'ing properly even. (These people were seriously item focused). The DM was adamant that I use the wish essentially stating that's the entire reason why he put the ring there. They finally annoyed me to the point I said "Fine. I wish to have Glory returned to me!"

I swear as God is my witness, the dm looked at me, shook his head and said "Well, ok, if that's your wish. A bard arrives on the scene and begins following you around, singing of your accomplishments and bringing glory to the party."

We don't talk anymore.

Now that was a ring, and didn't cost xp. In 3rd edition if I, or another party member, had spend 5000 xp and had that happen? That would've been grounds for acquittal right there. All I'd have needed was one gamer on the jury.

Don't anyone be that DM, please.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Why is it that an arcane caster must pay 5,000 xp for using this spell in any form and divine casters only pay the xp for essentially the same spell in certain situations? What game balance issue was being addressed by this?

Ironically it falls foul of one of the most basic design mantras used in 3e... "don't balance a mechanical effect with a role-playing penalty".

But mechanically miracle is better than wish in all ways, yet the only "balancing" factor is if the DM should decide to include rp penalties to the likelihood of it happening.

What seems funny (in a sad kind of way) is that this is possibly the biggest single event in the game! What does it cost a wizard to get +5 to a stat via wishes? 25,000xp! What does it cost a cleric? zippo!

Regards,

 

[Numion]

What seems funny (in a sad kind of way) is that this is possibly the biggest single event in the game! What does it cost a wizard to get +5 to a stat via wishes? 25,000xp! What does it cost a cleric? zippo!

Miracle spell doesn't allow you to increase stats.

 

[Otterscrubber]

IMHO, DMs who cling to monkey paw wishes need to get with the times. Previously wishes were very unstructured and DMs were encouraged to mess with players who asked for things that were unbalanced or out of line to keep some sort of balance. This is continued in 3e and 3.5, but at least there is some structure now as to what should be safe to cast. But along the way somehow this got twisted into "If your players are dumb enough to cast this spell they deserve what they get!"

Now if you are getting a wish from a Glabrezu demon I can see how your simple, altruistic wish to resurrect your friend might not have the happy ending you envisioned, but other than that I think DMs need to remember this is a 9th level spell that should be working FOR the PC, not against him/her.

Now are far as Miracles being a better deal than wishes I am troubled that everyone seems to think deities are less vindictive/demanding than whatever force magic springs from. With regards to arcane magic, it seems to be pretty neutral when casting all the other spells, why would this one be different? I think that in an Fantasy RPG like D&D you can ratinalize anything so saying that the gods are easier to deal with does not make sense to me. Neither does an arguement that wizards are more flexible than clerics that someone mentioned. You do know that clerics have access to ALL of their spells while wizards generally don't? How that is more flexible I would like to know.

Sounds like there is a game imbalance so far. Too bad, as it is unlikely to get addressed or even properly explained at this point.

 

[jontherev]

But you also have to take into account the traditional sport of screwing up every Wish by twisting the wording unless perfect. Which God would purposefully twist a Miracle of his Cleric if the PC is basically dedicating all his life to his God's will?

Lolth?

 

[dravot]

Miracle spell doesn't allow you to increase stats.

It's not clear whether it does or not. The text for miracle doesn't specifically state that it will increase stats, like wish does, but the requirements for any of the stat books (like Tome of Clear Thought) are wish OR miracle.

I'd rule that they both increase stats, at 5000xp per increase.

 

[jontherev]

But you also have to take into account the traditional sport of screwing up every Wish by twisting the wording unless perfect. Which God would purposefully twist a Miracle of his Cleric if the PC is basically dedicating all his life to his God's will?

Lolth?

 

[Numion]

It's not clear whether it does or not. The text for miracle doesn't specifically state that it will increase stats, like wish does, but the requirements for any of the stat books (like Tome of Clear Thought) are wish OR miracle.

I'd rule that they both increase stats, at 5000xp per increase.

Why is it then specifically included in the list of things you can do with Wish?

Well at least cleric can't do it for zero exp as Plane Sailing claimed.

 

[LightPhoenix]

But it's basically tradition for DMs to screw over players that try to use Wish; the "safe list" in the Wish description is there just so that the spell is usable at all.

Yeah, and that tradition is one of the reasons I hate Wish. You shouldn't be screwed over intentionally for trying to use your abilities. I've always ruled it as simply not working if I didn't like the effect.

 

[Suldulin]

personally I feel that if something outside of the list is wished for, then the magic takes the 'path of least resistance' to get as close to the effect as possible.

Only times I think the wish should be intentionally twisted is if some evil or prankster entity is granting the wish.