Wizard question?

[Bialaska]

I don't know if this has been asked elsewhere in the board.

Anyway, the question I have is if Wizards somehow gain a bonus to hit with their spells the same way weapon users do.

For instance a Wizard level 1 with 18 intelligence appears to hit with +4 at the various saves. Meanwhile a Rogue level 1 with 18 dexterity and a dagger seems to hit with a +8. Does a wizard carrying a quarterstaff add the quarterstaff's bonus to hit with spells or something or are Wizards just generally getting the short end of the stick?

 

[ve4grm]

They seem to have the short end, but remember one thing.

The Wizard (and Implement powers in general) attack Reflex/Fort/Will defenses, while Weapon powers generally attack AC.

R/F/W defenses are usually a couple points below AC, so the difference is actually balanced out pretty well.

 

[Bialaska]

I think it's going to be quite rare to have 4 more AC than you have in your other stats. The characters I've been working on so far have about the same in saves as in AC, so it's not going to be that much higher unless you're a character in a plate with a shield.

 

[Maximillian]

ve4grm has it. They have a lower chance to hit, but against weaker defenses than AC.

Of course, having a magical Orb, Wand or Staff confers a bonus to hit and damage just like having magic sword, so the lack of proficiency bonuses becomes less and less daunting as time moves on.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I think it's going to be quite rare to have 4 more AC than you have in your other stats. The characters I've been working on so far have about the same in saves as in AC, so it's not going to be that much higher unless you're a character in a plate with a shield.

Really? There's a pretty wide difference in most of the PCs in my group. My rogue, for instance, has pretty good AC and Reflex, but his Fort and Will are both much lower.

 

[Bialaska]

Well, I mean that characters may have some saves that are as high or even higher than AC. AC isn't automatically the highest save.

Also in the example of the rogue, he has powers that hit not only AC, but also Will and Reflex. So with Piercing Strike at-will power the Rogue has +4 more to hit than the Wizard of the same level has to hit with his Magic Missile.

 

[Ahglock]

Really? There's a pretty wide difference in most of the PCs in my group. My rogue, for instance, has pretty good AC and Reflex, but his Fort and Will are both much lower.

Player classes will have a fairly large swing between AC and other defenses. For example a leather armor wearer will eventually have a 4 point swing between Ac and reflex defense. The heavier the armor, the larger the swing in reflex defense. Monsters seem to have anywhere from no difference or a 8 or 9 point difference.

 

[ve4grm]

Yep. From the WWDDGD adventure pregens:

AC/F/R/W

Wizard: 14/11/14/15
Rogue: 15/12/15/13
Cleric: 16/14/12/16
Human Fighter: 19/17/15/12 <-----

I don't have the Dwarf Fighter around.

But each of these has at least one defense 3 lower than their AC. The human fighter has all at least 2 lower, and Will is 7 (!!!) below AC. Part of being a Wizard is, as always, knowing which one will be lower for a given enemy type.

Additionally, these are only 1st level. The difference for characters will only get larger at higher levels, as primary stats are boosted, new and better armour is found, and secondary stats are ignored.

For monsters, this largely stays true as well:

Pit Fiend (26 elite): 44/42/38/40
Tarrasque (30 solo): 43/49/38/32
Orcus (33 solo): 48/51/46/49

(Orcus isn't as much of a difference, but his Ref is still 2 below his AC.)

 

[Ahglock]

Yep. From the WWDDGD adventure pregens:

AC/F/R/W

Wizard: 14/11/14/15
Rogue: 15/12/15/13
Cleric: 16/14/12/16
Human Fighter: 19/17/15/12 <-----

I don't have the Dwarf Fighter around.

But each of these has at least one defense 3 lower than their AC. The human fighter has all at least 2 lower, and Will is 7 (!!!) below AC. Part of being a Wizard is, as always, knowing which one will be lower for a given enemy type.

Additionally, these are only 1st level. The difference for characters will only get larger at higher levels, as primary stats are boosted, new and better armour is found, and secondary stats are ignored.

For monsters, this largely stays true as well:

Pit Fiend (26 elite): 44/42/38/40
Tarrasque (30 solo): 43/49/38/32
Orcus (33 solo): 48/51/46/49

(Orcus isn't as much of a difference, but his Ref is still 2 below his AC.)

Also note, the one class with a higher save than AC is the cloth wearer, so yeah people without armor don't have a high AC, compared to other saves. Monsters seem to fall in the same type of categories with saves similar to what you will see in a player. A skirmisher type mob will have similar AC to save distributions as a striker would.

 

[Bialaska]

Well, the Rogue I am working on has:
AC: 16
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 18
Will: 15

Fortitude and Will aren't really that much lower than the AC. Unless there was something I missed somewhere.