Wizard vs. Monk...Winner?

[Thanee]

Next, I'd use Quiverring Palm instead of Stunning Blow. I can't see why people are talking about Stunning Blow, when Quiverring Palm is the same DC but an instant death. The Monk could just as easily have a DC 30 on this ability. Fort or die wizard, and suddenly it's a game of initiative.

Nope, the wizard will make that first save on a 2+ and that's all he needs to get to cast his spells. I think we all agree, that the wizard simply wins, as soon as he casts his first spell Time Stop or whatever, there are plenty options.

Saves need to be maxed... unfortunately Monk's have MAD. Still with magical items, your saves should each be around 20+.

The monk's saves don't matter. Only against wizards with little clue.

Force Cage is also close, while Dimensional Anchor has a ranged touch, and a Monk's touch AC at this level could be in the 30's. You'd be better off chancing the monk's save vrs and instant death spell.

Dimensional Lock, bay-bee, not Anchor.

Contingency teleport eh? Whenever he gets close? So the monk closes.. you teleport away, then what?

Then you use your buffs and your Greater Scry and summons and ... and ... and ... THEN you come back.

Time Stop- you can cast area spells and buffing spells, YAY!

YAY, indeed! Do you even have an idea how obscene a 20th level buffed up wizard's stats look like!?

Quickened True Strike and Otto's Irresistable Dance

That's one of the working methods to keep the monk busy while crushing him. I'd use an extended Otto's, tho, and make sure my luckblades are at hand, to reroll the potential 1 on the attack roll or for a single class wizard the potential 1-4 on the SR roll.

Bye
Thanee

 

[green slime]

You are all wrong. Forget the Wizard, forget the monk. The DM wins.

 

[Klaus]

Here's a Monk 20 I put up in e-Tools:

Unknown, Male Human Mnk20: CR 20; Medium Humanoid ; HD 20d8+20(Monk) ; hp 114; Init +10; Spd 90; AC:37 (Flatfooted:31 Touch:29); Atk +21/16/11 base melee, +22/17/12 base ranged; +26/21/16 (2d10+9, Unarmed strike); AL LG; SV Fort +20, Ref +25, Will +23; STR 20, DEX 22, CON 13, INT 10, WIS 19, CHA 8.
Skills: Appraise +2, Balance +10, Bluff +1, Climb +7, Concentration +3, Control Shape +6, Craft (Alchemy) +0, Craft (Armorsmithing) +0, Craft (Basketweaving) +0, Craft (Blacksmithing) +0, Craft (Bookbinding) +0, Craft (Bowmaking) +0, Craft (Calligraphy) +0, Craft (Carpentry) +0, Craft (Cobbling) +0, Craft (Gemcutting) +0, Craft (Leatherworking) +0, Craft (Locksmithing) +0, Craft (Painting) +0, Craft (Pottery) +0, Craft (Sculpting) +0, Craft (Shipmaking) +0, Craft (Stonemasonry) +0, Craft (Trapmaking) +0, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +0, Craft (Weaving) +0, Diplomacy +1, Disguise +1, Escape Artist +20, Forgery +2, Gather Information +1, Heal +6, Hide +30, Intimidate +1, Jump +37, Listen +18, Literacy +2, Move Silently +30, Perform (Act) +1, Perform (Comedy) +1, Perform (Dance) +1, Perform (Keyboard Instruments) +1, Perform (Oratory) +1, Perform (Percussion) +1, Perform (Sing) +1, Perform (String Instruments) +1, Perform (Wind Instruments) +1, Ride +8, Search +2, Sense Motive +6, Spot +27, Survival +6, Swim +7, Tumble +30, Use Rope +8.

Feats: Ability Focus, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed strike, Improved Sunder, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Finesse.
Possessions:
Goods: Coin: gp (99900) (99,900 gp).
Magic: Wondrous: Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000 gp); Wondrous: Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp); Wondrous: Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000 gp); Wondrous: Amulet of Mighty Fists +4 (96,000 gp); Wondrous: Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36,000 gp); Wondrous: Helm of Teleportation (73,500 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Incandescent Blue [Sphere] (8,000 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Pale Blue [Rhomboid] (8,000 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Pale Green [Prism] (30,000 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Lavendar and Green [Ellipsoid] (40,000 gp); Ring: Protection +5 (50,000 gp); Wondrous: Boots of Speed (12,000 gp); Wondrous: Tome of Understanding +5 (137,500 gp); Wondrous: Mask of the Skull (22,000 gp); Wondrous: Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone) (20,000 gp); Potion: Cure Serious Wounds (7) (1,050 gp); Potion: Protection from Energy (7) (1,050 gp).

 

[Thanee]

That monk has no way to escape a Forcecage-Dimensional Lock-Prison.

Besides, he has two enhancement bonuses to strength.

Bye
Thanee

P.S.

Craft (Alchemy) +0, Craft (Armorsmithing) +0, Craft (Basketweaving) +0, Craft (Blacksmithing) +0, Craft (Bookbinding) +0, Craft (Bowmaking) +0, Craft (Calligraphy) +0, Craft (Carpentry) +0, Craft (Cobbling) +0, Craft (Gemcutting) +0, Craft (Leatherworking) +0, Craft (Locksmithing) +0, Craft (Painting) +0, Craft (Pottery) +0, Craft (Sculpting) +0, Craft (Shipmaking) +0, Craft (Stonemasonry) +0, Craft (Trapmaking) +0, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +0, Craft (Weaving) +0

 

[Storm Raven]

I'd actually put it at a 60-40 in favor of the monk myself, but I'd use different tactics.

For the Monk:

If I were building the monk myself, I'd use my Empty Body ability to go ethereal first thing. Then close with the wizard/ sorceror.

Empty body is of no value against force effects.

Next, I'd use Quiverring Palm instead of Stunning Blow. I can't see why people are talking about Stunning Blow, when Quiverring Palm is the same DC but an instant death. The Monk could just as easily have a DC 30 on this ability. Fort or die wizard, and suddenly it's a game of initiative.

Your hypothetical monk has a 30 Wisdom using the core rules? That's pretty high, and assuming you use some sort of point buy build, you have to sacrifice a lot of other ability scores to get there.

Saves need to be maxed... unfortunately Monk's have MAD. Still with magical items, your saves should each be around 20+. Invest in a scroll of Protection from Spells and Use Magic Device and possibly add +3. Most wizard saves will be in the 21-30 range at this level, 34 tops if they dump everything into it.

Assuming the wizard has a 30 Intelligence (to match your 30 Wisdom), the saves for his spells would range from 20 (for 0-level spells) through 29 (for 9th level spells) assuming he does not have anything like Spell Focus on hand. The problem is, the wizard is probably going to try to use spells that don't allow for a save.

For the Wizard:

Force Cage is also close, while Dimensional Anchor has a ranged touch, and a Monk's touch AC at this level could be in the 30's. You'd be better off chancing the monk's save vrs and instant death spell.

[/i]Dimensional Lock[/i] has no save. Once you are trapped in the forcecage and locked down, your movement doesn't matter.

Horrid Wilting would possibly be the best damage dealer, and sure fire way to wear down the monk while keeping distance (1200 ft away Mwuhahaha!!!). Now if only D&D didn't have -1 to Spot check for every ten feet putting you at a -120 Spot check... The Monk could Hide without ranks, and run full speed and you'd literally never see him coming.... and you can't target what you can't see.

That's why you have spells like Scrying.

Contingency teleport eh? Whenever he gets close? So the monk closes.. you teleport away, then what? Cast another contigency and another teleport? Then you have to cast Another teleport to go back into the battle. Roll init, and if you lose again, the monk can run 500 feet to get close (which he can do in a round), and your teleported again! There goes four or more spells. Not too mention a smart monk would immediately Hide when the Wizard disappears. So when you return you have to find each other again (see the -1 to Spot for every 10 feet), so teleporting in 5,000 feet away will do you no good.

Fly + Teleport to return. Stay out of the monk's range for abundant step and you are fine. Rain death from above. Rinse, repeat.

Time Stop- you can cast area spells and buffing spells, YAY! Almost all area spells that are worth their salt are Reflex saves, and if the monk makes it he takes no damage, if he fails half. Horrid Wilting on the other hand....

And you can summon allies. 4 greater air elementals (or some other combination of 3 or four high level summon spells) can ruin a monk's day.

Meteor Swarm- risk a touch attack or a Reflex save with a 9th level spell for potentially low damage...

True Strike + Meteor Swarm = toasty Monk

My choice of spells- Bigby's Crushing Hand- suddenly the Monk's not-so-mobile as he has NO chance against a +40's grapple. Prismatic Sphere- because... yeah... you can't run through that much pain. Quickened True Strike and Otto's Irresistable Dance or Imprisonment if you'd like to chance a save.

Basically the wizard's tactics amount to (1) lock the monk down, and (2) kill him at the wizard's leisure. Once he's locked down, the monk's resistances will eventually fail.

 

[Macbrea]

It is possible to design a monk that is absolutely cheesy for a single 20th level combat. Take this example:

Monk 20. Items 20 Necklace of fireballs type VII in sack. 1 type 2 necklace of fireballs in which he has one 2d6 fireball in his hand. All the feats and dex raising items he can get so that his initiative allows him to go first and one ring of fire resistance. He moves to within 20 feet and drops the the fireball. Declares he allows himself to be hit by the 2d6 blast. All the fireballs need to suddenly make a save as if they were effected by magic fire. Total damage when they finally go up equals 1174 d 6 damage in which the wizard will get to save for half damage. The monk with improved evasion is very likely to ignore all damage completely. And even if he does get hit, it is very likely he will live through the number of items he fails.

It is very unlikely the wizard would be prepared to resist fireball. As it's not in the monks normal arsenal.

But, the question isn't wether a 20th level monk could defeat a 20th level wizard. That is easily possible given the ability to pick and choose single items for a combat. Now, the question really is can a monk given the items aquired during normal play stack up against other classes during the same set of adventures. That really depends on what items were given out.

 

[Thanee]

It is very unlikely the wizard would be prepared to resist fireball.

Protection from Energy is only a 3rd level spell. Why not have that active against all elements. Extended, too. Lasts over 6h and doesn't really hurt, or does it?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Macbrea]

ok, assuming the 20th level wizard had protection from energy (fire) up. That is 240 hps protection. The average damage the wizard assuming he saves every single time. (We will give him a good day.) is 2045 damage - 120 max = 1925 damage. Now, he could have spell immunity fireball running and this combat quickly is over for the monk. But, the example I gave was simply stupid as no gamemaster would give a character 21 necklaces.

 

[Macbrea]

I should also mention for those of you that remember. I ran the second game of death here on the boards. It was built as an arena combat with 12th level characters. Under the 3.0 rules allowing any book at the time that wizards had published. The final winner of that combat was a fighter that got trapped behind a wall of force for the whole combat. It required him start a mining operation to get to the other side. Very late in the combat all spell casters had wiped out due to the shear firepower they could unlease on each other. Basicly, spell casters at that level get far more power then they can withstand.

The only reason it came down to a combat between two fighter types at the end is because one was trapped behind a wall and the other could evade reflex saves. This was also done on a small arena that prevented a character from leaving the area. Given most situations a wizard should always at least tie in combat. As they can run away very easily.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'd actually put it at a 60-40 in favor of the monk myself, but I'd use different tactics.

For the Monk:

If I were building the monk myself, I'd use my Empty Body ability to go ethereal first thing. Then close with the wizard/ sorceror.

The monk vanished? I would Dimension Door as far away as I can, then cast see invisibility and buffing spells, like fly. So no, the monk needs to sneak up on the mage. Which he can do, but not in one round anymore.

Force Cage is also close, while Dimensional Anchor has a ranged touch, and a Monk's touch AC at this level could be in the 30's. You'd be better off chancing the monk's save vrs and instant death spell.

*Sigh*

Cast fly. What is the monk to do now? Now feel free to use true strike if you need to hit, provided you prepared it. If not, just fly close and use forcecage. (Forcecage is pretty cheesy, IMO.)

Contingency teleport eh? Whenever he gets close? So the monk closes.. you teleport away, then what? Cast another contigency and another teleport?

No, you cast appropriately-ranged spells until the monk gets too close for comfort, and assuming the monk is still alive, cast another escape spell.

Then you have to cast Another teleport to go back into the battle. Roll init, and if you lose again, the monk can run 500 feet to get close (which he can do in a round)

Which is useless against a flying wizard.

Time Stop- you can cast area spells and buffing spells, YAY! Almost all area spells that are worth their salt are Reflex saves, and if the monk makes it he takes no damage, if he fails half. Horrid Wilting on the other hand....

While I can't expect a wizard to always prepare horrid wilting, any mage might cast forcecage during the time stop.

Meteor Swarm- risk a touch attack or a Reflex save with a 9th level spell for potentially low damage...

Don't bother unless you have true strike.