D&D 5E (2024) Wizard vs Sorcerer (a Campaign Experience)

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah that would be a pretty big nerf to something that is not very powerful to start with, and no other monster attack works like that with a save in the 2024 rules AFAIK. An unarmed strike is a melee attack, but it is a special case with its own verbiage specific to it and states it is a "melee attack" while this doesn't.

Yeah. Ok.

It is an ok houserule as long as it comes out in session 0, but I would be pretty upset as a player if this was sprung on me well into my character build, like the first time I tried it in play.

No problem. I undestand if you are upset when you want use the only familiar that has an at will ability it can use all the time because it does not involve an attack roll instead of all the other familiars who have limited abilities and usual attacks but the DM does not agree with you.

 

[ECMO3]

No problem. I undestand if you are upset when you want use the only familiar that has an at will ability it can use all the time because it does not involve an attack roll instead of all the other familiars who have limited abilities and usual attacks but the DM does not agree with you.

They are not the only familiar with at will abilities. A Quasit has Scare, a Sprite has Heartsight, Imp, Sprite and Quasit all have Invisibility, Raven has mimicry and Octopus has Ink cloud. None of these involve an attack roll and all of them except Scare and Ink Cloud are at will. Although Scare and Ink Cloud are not technically at will, they are at will in play because a Warlock can just summon another Familiar.

Even with the at will ability the PD is not one of the strongest familiars, in part because the DC sucks. At low level Imp and Sphinx are the strongest familiars in combat, way stronger in fact than the party Warlock himself, or other PCs until level 3 or so. A Quasit is also generally stronger than a Pseudodragon at all levels. The Pseudodragon has a decent at will ability but it is a situational ability with a very low DC (without spending 2 invocations) and requires the familiar to get within 5 feet of an enemy. This relatively good ability is offset by the fact the PD has a useless attack, terrible hit points, no Invisibility and no resistances or immunities like most of the Warlock-specific familiars do.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

They are not the only familiar with at will abilities. A Quasit has Scare, a Sprite has Heartsight, Imp, Sprite and Quasit all have Invisibility, Raven has mimicry and Octopus has Ink cloud. None of these involve an attack roll and all of them except Scare and Ink Cloud are at will. Although Scare and Ink Cloud are not technically at will, they are at will in play because a Warlock can just summon another Familiar.

I don't allow that either.

I don't want the warlock to change their familiar everytime.
I think of it as a companion. So if you summon an imp, it is the same imp everytime.
I get that in 5e, it technically is allowed to circumvent restrictions (see the doscussion of people who think that readying an action with action surge allows them to cast a spell despite the newly introduced limitation), but we just don't play this way.

Even with the at will ability the PD is not one of the strongest familiars, in part because the DC sucks. At low level Imp and Sphinx are the strongest familiars in combat, way stronger in fact than the party Warlock himself, or other PCs until level 3 or so.

Yes, imp is good. I also like the quasit.

A Quasit is also generally stronger than a Pseudodragon at all levels. The Pseudodragon has a decent at will ability but it is a situational ability with a very low DC (without spending 2 invocations) and requires the familiar to get within 5 feet of an enemy. This relatively good ability is offset by the fact the PD has a useless attack, terrible hit points, no Invisibility and no resistances or immunities like most of the Warlock-specific familiars do.

I get that. But I don't like the mindset.

 

[Ancalagon]

very interesting. But I'm not sure that this campaign, although 100% valid and I'm sure you are having fun, is the one to compare the two, because comparison between then are obscured by 2 things:

1: Control vs Blast - is one PC doing better because of their class or their playstyle choice?
2: Bladesigner: that's... you should compare that one to a bladelock or valor bard. It's a gish, not quite the same thing.

The "best" way to compare would be a campaign with 2 fairly similar PCs, except one is a sorcerer and one is a wizard. But that's not great, because now you have a party with 2 members that do almost the same thing.

 

[Zardnaar]

very interesting. But I'm not sure that this campaign, although 100% valid and I'm sure you are having fun, is the one to compare the two, because comparison between then are obscured by 2 things:

1: Control vs Blast - is one PC doing better because of their class or their playstyle choice?
2: Bladesigner: that's... you should compare that one to a bladelock or valor bard. It's a gish, not quite the same thing.

The "best" way to compare would be a campaign with 2 fairly similar PCs, except one is a sorcerer and one is a wizard. But that's not great, because now you have a party with 2 members that do almost the same thing.

 

[FrogReaver]

very interesting. But I'm not sure that this campaign, although 100% valid and I'm sure you are having fun, is the one to compare the two, because comparison between then are obscured by 2 things:

1: Control vs Blast - is one PC doing better because of their class or their playstyle choice?
2: Bladesigner: that's... you should compare that one to a bladelock or valor bard. It's a gish, not quite the same thing.

Agreed there are limitations.

The Bladesinger is definitely being played more like a Wizard than like a Gish, so I don't think that criticism follows at all.

The "best" way to compare would be a campaign with 2 fairly similar PCs, except one is a sorcerer and one is a wizard. But that's not great, because now you have a party with 2 members that do almost the same thing.

I'm not sure that would actually be a better way to make a comparison. Most of the play difference at that point would depend on random initiative orders.

One thing I'd like to add is that in most of the combats, tasha's laughter from the wizard has had at most 2 good targets at time. Often just 1. The other enemies were usually much weaker. This is important when considering the usefulness of twin spell on a sorcerer for it. So while in some campaigns twin metamagic on a control spell would have made a huge difference, i'm not sure it would have so far in ours.

 

[Zardnaar]

Bladesingers make better controller than gish. That buff to concentration rolls.

 

[FrogReaver]

Campaign Continued
Tonight, we fought cultists in their dungeon. Rescued some prisoners. Still have to safely escort them out.

Familiar
Familiar scouting was proven super effective again, though we did encounter doors. Sorcerer chugged through his slots again. My Wizard wasn't nearly as effective in combat. I missed alot of attacks and only had 1 decent opportunity to use a control spell which whiffed. Familiar help action for advantage was also helpful though.

Goodberry/Rests/Resource Ooomph
The Wizard's Magic Initiate Goodberry and supply of 80 goodberries going into the dungeon from the night before helped alot. While the Sorcerer ran out of slots before this dungeon was over the goodberries kept the martials topped off on hp. Given the circumstances i'm not sure how safe a short rest would have been, let alone a long rest, so that worked well. I definitely feel like the Sorcerer dominated combat over all participants tonight, though the flashiness was often in encounters or at times in encounters where it wasn't strictly needed and he was out of slots in the last encounter. Due to the goodberries and circumstances of being in a a cultist stronghold we never short rested, which the monk definitely felt. The Fighter possibly did as well but to a much lesser degree.

Ritual Highlights
I guess I should also mention that we hit level 4 before this session, the sorcerer and I both took fey-touched. Our monk took grappler and hasn't realized he should probably stop using his spear for more unarmed attacks yet. I had a great moment with augury. A cultist surrendered and we debated whether we should kill him or take him prisoner. I used augury to ask if we should take him prisoner and got the weal (good) option which gave us confidence that the intel he provided us was accurate and we were able to bypass alot of the dungeon and quickly find the cultists prison and rescue their prisoners.

Wild Magic
Sorcerer's wild magic didn't do anything bad to us tonight, he did get one of the options on his list that dealt good damage to up to 3 enemies nearby.

Bladesong
My Wizard did use bladesong once. The monk dropped down to 1 hp and thought he might need to wade into combat to help. Ultimately though, it was near the end of the encounter and everyone hit over the next turn and we mopped up the remaining enemies.

Treasure Finds
Most notable item found was a +1 wand of the warmage. The sorcerer will be using that. Also found another bag of holding, but thats minor. Loot has mostly been random as DM has us roll d6's to determine loot category and then provides the specific item on his end. I assume randomly due the random part to determine item type but he doesn't roll that openly.