D&D 5E Wizard with 20 CON and the Durable feat

[Ashkelon]

This is not true. There are numerous times in the Basic Rules that the words attack roll is used without mentioning modifiers. When Bless says, "Whenever a target makes an attack roll or a saving throw before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the attack roll or saving throw." Do you think they mean you can only apply the Bless d4 if you don't use your attack roll modifier?

That doesn't disprove my point at all. The attack roll is just the d20 roll. But you add modifiers to the roll and see if the total of the roll + modifiers is equal to or better than the targets AC.

5e specifically separates roll from modifiers, but all modifiers are still added in as modifiers.they just aren't counted as part of the roll.

 

[variant]

That doesn't disprove my point at all. The attack roll is just the d20 roll. But you add modifiers to the roll and see if the total of the roll + modifiers is equal to or better than the targets AC.

5e specifically separates roll from modifiers, but all modifiers are still added in as modifiers.

You add modifiers to an attack roll. That's assumed in every instance when an attack roll is mentioned. There is no difference between that and assuming that a HD roll includes the modifiers as well when it is mentioned. The difference is your interpretation because you are used to the mention of an attack roll from D&D. The only exception is when the rules explains what an attack roll is or modifies what type of modifier it gets.

It's the same way with the damage roll, initiative roll, and saving throw.

 

[Ashkelon]

You add modifiers to attack roll. That's assumed in every instance when an attack roll is mentioned. There is no difference between that and assuming that a HD roll includes the modifiers as well when it is mentioned. The difference is your interpretation because you are used to the mention of an attack roll from D&D. The only exception is when the rules explains what an attack roll is or modifies what type of modifier it gets.


It's the same way with the damage roll, initiative roll, and saving throw.

5e doesn't do it that way. I quoted the text of both 5e and 3e for comparison.


3e uses the term "natural roll" to reference the die roll and "roll" for the the total of the die roll + modifiers.
5e uses the term "roll" to only relate to the die roll. This is why the definition of attack roll in 5e says compare the total of the roll plus modifiers to the targets AC. In 3e, attack rolls say just compare the result to the targets AC.


In 5e, the halfling lucky trait, the rogue reliable talent, and the champion expanded crit do not specify "natural roll" like they would in 3e. They only use the word roll. This is because roll means just the die roll.


Mike Mearls even confirmed this on twitter. Roll in 5e is just the die roll. Durable sets the minimum of your roll to 2x Con mod. A 20 Con durable wizard regains 15 HP per HD spent. Yes, their minimum roll is more than the maximum possible result of their HD. All confirmed by Mike Mearls.


P.S. The feat is still a crappy feat. It is almost always better to get the Tough Feat, Resilient Feat, or simply take +2 Con.

 

[variant]

5e doesn't do it that way. I quoted the text of both 5e and 3e for comparison.


3e uses the term "natural roll" to reference the die roll and "roll" for the the total of the die roll + modifiers.
5e uses the term "roll" to only relate to the die roll. This is why the definition of attack roll in 5e says compare the total of the roll plus modifiers to the targets AC. In 3e, attack rolls say just compare the result to the targets AC.


In 5e, the halfling lucky trait, the rogue reliable talent, and the champion expanded crit do not specify "natural roll" like they would in 3e. They only use the word roll. This is because roll means just the die roll.

When it says, "On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise." You think it means only the damage dice and not damage dice plus modifier?

Let's make a new feat and tell me how you would interpret it.

Aggressive
Formidable and tenacious, you gain the following benefits:

• When you roll damage on a melee attack, the minimum amount of damage you deal from the roll equals to twice your Strength modifier (minimum 2).

Mike Mearls even confirmed this on twitter. Roll in 5e is just the die roll. Durable sets the minimum of your roll to 2x Con mod. A 20 Con durable wizard regains 15 HP per HD spent. Yes, their minimum roll is more than the maximum possible result of their HD. All confirmed by Mike Mearls.


P.S. The feat is still a crappy feat. It is almost always better to get the Tough Feat, Resilient Feat, or simply take +2 Con.

No, he didn't. In fact, he confirmed the opposite, that a roll is a roll + modifier.

 

[Ashkelon]

I suggest you re-read the 5e core rules. You seem to be confused on a number of them, and are using the 3e definitions for many terms.

1) Damage Rolls
In 5e, when you make a damage roll, you simply roll your weapons damage die or dice. Then you add modifiers to the dice roll. So the roll itself is again only the die roll, but you add modifiers to it. Look at tge wording for the Great weapon Fighting Style: "you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2." If the roll meant the die roll + modifiers, it would be impossible to get any benefit from this feature if you had a +2 or greater ability modifier.

2) HD Rolls
They don't exist. There is no such thing as a HD roll in 5e. You can spend HD during a short rest to regain HP, but there is no such thing as a HD roll. When you spend HD, you roll the die and add your Con modifier to the ROLL, and recover that much HP. The roll, is just the die roll, just like everyhting else in 5e. The roll is of course modified by other bonuses.

3) Twitter
Mikes last tweets on the subject were these:

mikemearls [MENTION=70206]Thing[/MENTION]sCalledArt yeaj, just looked at the feat. the min roll + con mod application is fine.

ccarlson101 [MENTION=32417]MikeM[/MENTION]earls so a class with d6 or d8 HD and 20 con can use durable to get back more than max possible?

mikmearls [MENTION=69329]ccarlson[/MENTION]101 yes

So you can see, it can't be any more clear than that. Mike was previously mistaken as he mentioned that some feature should say "natural roll". He was in the 3e mindset with his first tweets on the subject. There is no such thing as a natural roll in 5e. He changed his mind and now agrees that the "roll" only relates to the die roll.

 

[Prism]

Mike was previously mistaken as he mentioned that some feature should say "natural roll". He was in the 3e mindset with his first tweets on the subject. There is no such thing as a natural roll in 5e. He changed his mind and now agrees that the "roll" only relates to the die roll.

I actually don't think it was a mindset that influenced his first tweets. He was referring to the previous version of the feat in the last playtest and had not read the update which doubles the Con bonus. After reading the new version he then agrees with your way for the feat (which I also agree with as it is written)

However, he implies that the feat is incorrectly written and shouldn't actually do that. By the sound of it the change caught him out (I'm sure he has more important stuff to do then keep up with all the final text adjustments). If we really cared that much what the feat is supposed to do we could find out who changed the text and ask if in doing so were they trying to improve the clarity of the wording (and obviously failing miserably) or were they increasing the power of the feat due to some final playtest feedback. I doubt we will get an answer and even if we did people would still do it their way anyway. Still, we all like a good debate and what better subject than a feat nobody really cares about eh

 

[variant]

I suggest you re-read the 5e core rules. You seem to be confused on a number of them, and are using the 3e definitions for many terms.

1) Damage Rolls
In 5e, when you make a damage roll, you simply roll your weapons damage die or dice. Then you add modifiers to the dice roll. So the roll itself is again only the die roll, but you add modifiers to it. Look at tge wording for the Great weapon Fighting Style: "you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2." If the roll meant the die roll + modifiers, it would be impossible to get any benefit from this feature if you had a +2 or greater ability modifier.

2) HD Rolls
They don't exist. There is no such thing as a HD roll in 5e. You can spend HD during a short rest to regain HP, but there is no such thing as a HD roll. When you spend HD, you roll the die and add your Con modifier to the ROLL, and recover that much HP. The roll, is just the die roll, just like everyhting else in 5e. The roll is of course modified by other bonuses.

1.) It's about context, by the mention of a specific number it's obviously referring to the individual die.

2.) The Short Rest section defines what happens when you spend a Hit Die and the terminology used is, "The character regains hit points equal to the total." The feat reads, "the maximum number of hit points you regain from the roll equals twice your Constitution modifier."

The feat modifies how many hit points you regain. You never regain hit points prior to the modifier. You only gain hit points post-modifier.

3) Twitter
Mikes last tweets on the subject were these:

mikemearls @Thing sCalledArt yeaj, just looked at the feat. the min roll + con mod application is fine.

ccarlson101 @MikeM earls so a class with d6 or d8 HD and 20 con can use durable to get back more than max possible?

mikmearls @ccarlson 101 yes

So you can see, it can't be any more clear than that. Mike was previously mistaken as he mentioned that some feature should say "natural roll". He was in the 3e mindset with his first tweets on the subject. There is no such thing as a natural roll in 5e. He changed his mind and now agrees that the "roll" only relates to the die roll.

This is what I mean about people posting tweets out of context.

Immediately prior to ccalson's tweet, Mike said this: @ ThingsCalledArt yeah, just looked at feat. the min roll + con mod application is fine.

and this:
@Plaguescarred though realistically, applying that to the roll doesn't make the feat too good - you dropped a 20 into Con and took the feat

Mike Mearl specifically said he didn't think that applying it to the roll would make the feat overpowered and then answered ccarlson's question. He was never 'mistaken', he never backtracked or changed his mind.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I never questioned wether it was good or not, simply what the feat said RAW.

 

[variant]

I never questioned wether it was good or not, simply what the feat said RAW.

It wasn't a reply to a question, it was his own musing.

 

[MagicMan540]

The answer is "No, sometimes he gets 11."

The normal rule is roll your hit die and add your Con modifier. With a Con of 20 his modifier is +5. So without the feat he rolls 1d6+5, giving him a possible range 6-11.
With the durable feat the minimum number of hit points you get equals twice your Con modifier. This gives you protection against a bad roll. If the total of your roll is less than that amount you get that amount instead. Otherwise you get whatever you rolled.
So our wizard with a +5 Con modifier gets a minimum of 10 hit points each time he rolls his hit die. If he rolls a 6 he gets 11hp (6+5=11). If he rolls a 5 he gets 10hp (5+5=10). If he rolls anything less than that, the Durable feat kicks in and he gets 10hp (5x2=10).