billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Maybe you should re-read what I said.
D&D 5E Wizards not taking Gencon seriously?
Maybe you should re-read what I said.
Hussar
Legend
Snark? Really?
You said that
What part did I misrepresent? You flat out stated that the majority of the crowd hasn't played D&D. If half your attendees have never played a game, and are obviously there to play a different game (CCG or boardgame in this case) can it really be stated that your convention is emphasising RPG's? Never minding that D&D is just one of many RPG's they could take an interest in.
It sounds a lot to me like Gen Con isn't really an RPG convention if over half of the attendees have never played D&D. Which makes WOTC's decision not to support Gen Con kinda understandable. Why bother trying to push at a venue where half the attendance has little interest in what you're selling and the other half is already sold?
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
So what did you misrepresent? I said that I could imagine 1/2 to 2/3 of the crowd not having played D&D. You misinterpreted that as flat out saying they weren't. I don't know for sure, but I don't think it's an out of line estimate. You also interpreted that as me saying they're not role players. That's not what I said - that's a misunderstanding on your part.
I think there are a lot of role playing gamers who don't actually play D&D. I know of several who got into the hobby through the Worlds of Darkness games and LARPing. D&D may still be a pretty decent gateway, but for a lot of gamers about 10-15 years younger than me, I'm not sure it's the only one. I know quite a few kids of my daughter's generation who didn't start with D&D but with role-playing in free form forums online. Plus, there are lots of other things that bring people to Gen Con. As Morrus pointed out, CCGs, board games, cosplay, anime. You can't walk around the con without running into knots of people playing party card games like Ultimate Werewolf.
And then you've got Pathfinder. Thanks to the Beginner Box and the kids track at Gen Con, there are a whole lot of kids growing into the hobby without having played the original gateway and flagship. Paizo works that convention to get the attendance and sales it gets. You'll see Erik Mona and Lisa Stevens walking about even in the kids track seeing how things are going. Maybe that's something WotC should think about doing.
Hussar
Legend
Sorry, but, I consider Pathfinder to be D&D. It would be pretty hard to play Pathfinder without knowing any references to D&D. That's a pretty fine hair to split.
And, again, you're right, I'm sure that there are those who got into RPG's through other games than D&D. But, for someone going to Gen Con? Someone who is that hard core of a gamer (of any stripe) and has played RPG's but never played D&D? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that's a pretty small number.
Sure, if you want to strip off Pathfinder as not-D&D, then fine. Then again, Paizo is heavily subsidizing the con, so, maybe it might be fair to think of Gen-Con as an adjunct to Paizocon?
I'm just not particularly convinced that it's a mistake for WOTC to ignore Gen-Con. They've stated their reasons - People go to play, attendance at seminars is limited - and I have no real reason to doubt them. No one's offered up any counter evidence, other than anecdote. I guess, I'm just naive enough to take WOTC at their word when they say they're not doing Gen-Con because they aren't getting out of Gen-Con what they want.
I have no interest in arm-chair quarterbacking.
And, again, you're right, I'm sure that there are those who got into RPG's through other games than D&D. But, for someone going to Gen Con? Someone who is that hard core of a gamer (of any stripe) and has played RPG's but never played D&D? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that's a pretty small number.
Sure, if you want to strip off Pathfinder as not-D&D, then fine. Then again, Paizo is heavily subsidizing the con, so, maybe it might be fair to think of Gen-Con as an adjunct to Paizocon?
I'm just not particularly convinced that it's a mistake for WOTC to ignore Gen-Con. They've stated their reasons - People go to play, attendance at seminars is limited - and I have no real reason to doubt them. No one's offered up any counter evidence, other than anecdote. I guess, I'm just naive enough to take WOTC at their word when they say they're not doing Gen-Con because they aren't getting out of Gen-Con what they want.
I have no interest in arm-chair quarterbacking.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
It's close enough for rock and roll, but that isn't the point here. The point here is that actual D&D, as in the brand and the company behind that brand, were woefully under-represented at GenCon.
A sad commentary in and of itself, if true.
Lanefan
Osgood
Adventurer
The people at Gen Con who have never played D&D or any RPG are all potential players. Just because someone is a hard core card or board gamer doesn't mean they would never play an RPG. Since they are at a gaming con, they are most likely the sort of person In the target demographic.
I'm a hard core RPG player, but I have tried a ton of board games at Gen Con, many of which I now own... A few years ago, I would never have thought I would enjoy board games as much as I do. I stands to reason that other types of gamers can have similar experiences with D&D. The D&D board game for example could be a good way for a board gamer to get exposed to D&D.
Let's not forget that D&D isn't the only game WotC makes. There are probably plenty of folks who've never tried Magic or the Avalon Hill games.
I'm a hard core RPG player, but I have tried a ton of board games at Gen Con, many of which I now own... A few years ago, I would never have thought I would enjoy board games as much as I do. I stands to reason that other types of gamers can have similar experiences with D&D. The D&D board game for example could be a good way for a board gamer to get exposed to D&D.
Let's not forget that D&D isn't the only game WotC makes. There are probably plenty of folks who've never tried Magic or the Avalon Hill games.
For the last four years, I have attended GenCon with a group of 5-6 friends to play mostly Pathfinder. Only myself and one other senior member of the group have played D&D. The others came to the group as sort of a chain of acquaintances/friends. Before Pathfinder, they had mostly played WoW, Magic, and boardgames.
Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
I'm in between on this one. I've never seen one of their seminars have limited attendance. But then again I never went to panels other than their announcement panels which were always packed with a line of people who wanted to get in. I didn't go to things like the "Future of the Forgotten Realms" panels that I figured would be boring. They might be talking about those ones.
However, I know that GenCon has always been a celebration of D&D. It's been a place people run to buy the new D&D books. It's been a place to meet with the designers and find out what was coming next. It was also a place where you got to play D&D and meet new friends who play the game you loved.
I think I agree that WOTC isn't getting anything out of GenCon anymore but that's only because they honestly don't seem to care about the game anymore. Whether people play it or not is not really important to them. They now have a very hands off attitude toward the game. They assume people will play in their own homes and in their local gaming stores and that's good enough. If people want to play D&D at conventions...well, they'll do that as well but they don't need WOTC to organize it or be involved.
All of their recent attitudes have said "We want to release this game into the wild and let it be whatever it will be." They've said they aren't in competition with Pathfinder. Which is true, because they don't care if their game succeeds or not. The main goal appears to be promoting the IDEA of D&D rather than the game itself. They do that better through video games, movies, celebrity D&D games, and press releases than they do by actually printing books or encouraging organized play.
Doc_Klueless
Doors and Corners
Right. Of that 61,000, some of them are there for other stuff such as boardgames, ccgs, mini games, other roleplaying games. I'd venture a guess (if it's anything like the cons I've recently attended in the last three years) that fully half of those people have no intention of touching D&D no matter how it's presented. So that leaves still a giant chunk of people, sure. 30,000 is nothing to sneeze at. But then you have to wonder just how many of that 30,000 were actually disappointed. And was their disappointment in the con itself or WotC's participation. And of those...
What I'm alluding to is that, I suspect (and I already admit that I could be wrong) is that GenCon actually has little impact on the gaming community as a whole now that the things that people would go to the con for are being moved outside of it: instant information - internet, interviews and panels - youtube, twitter, internet, Adventure League - local store (if you have one), etc. All without the hassle of travel, hotels, crowds, stink, sub-standard food, etc.
People keep telling me that GenCon has grown in size every year, but what we don't know is where that growth within GenCon has been. (or at least, I don't.) Is it growing it in the RPG area or is it everything else that is growing in leaps and bounds such as boardgames, ccgs, mini-games, etc. It's quite possible that the RPG population of GenCon has been shrinking while everything else is growing to replace that loss plus more. And if that's the case, then the impact of GenCon is growing even less and less on the RPG community.
I ask because one of the common comments from those I converse with who go to cons as been a reflection of the above paragraph. RPGs are decreasing; everything else is increasing including the size of the cons.
Edit: Let me make it clear the view point I'm coming from for these posts: Gencon has zero impact on my gaming life and the gaming life of my gaming friends, so I find it interesting just how much Gencon is affecting the RPG-lives of others. I'm NOT trying to cause arguments, hurt feelings, etc. My post are from genuine interest in the subject and nothing more.
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The way to get a potential player is not by having a seminar, or a booth, both because those are just poor tools for the purpose, and because the target is unlikely to bother attending. The way to hook someone is by having them *play*. But, as I understand it, the game seats at GenCon are largely booked up well before the con begins. So, your potential players have little opportunity to pick it up spur of the moment.
Thus, the Con doesn't seem a god place to recruit anyone who wasn't already trying to get into the game.
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