Wizards vs. Clerics

[Numion]

As for whether a buffed cleric is a clearly superior fighter to a fighter of the same level, I am still very doubtfull. Also, those buffs mean the cleric doesn't really have any other powers left to use, if they buff themselves....it's also temporary, whereas a fighters' powers are permanent....I may be swayed with some numbers, but even if it turns out the buffed Cleric is 'better,' I'd say that it doesn't prove much, what with the temporariness, and the cleric having to basically use all their class powers to get there (and then not having healing or damage-dealing left).

Well, the fighter has used all his class-powers to get there too, why shouldn't the cleric? Kidding aside, the cleric doesn't have to use all his powers to buffing; after all he has more spell slots than a wizard of equal level. Most of the important buffs last 1 hour / level or 10 min / level. That's enough for a single foray into a dungeon or whatnot. The cleric really doesn't need to use slots for healing, since a single CLW wand can cure around 275 points of damage on the average. All I'm saying that if the cleric doesn't surpass fighter of equal level in ass-kicking, he's at least damn close. That and full clerical casting means power.

To compensate for not being able to kill things with magic, they're at least somewhat competent in melee.

Some clerical death spells are better than wizards. I'm sure any wizard would want fire storm or destruction in their arsenal. Blade barrier is also quite useful.

Otherwise, as far as I can see, a cleric excels in the things it's supposed to excel at (like calling servants of the gods, power over life and death, making the party stronger, and in using his god for advice), and remains competent in martial skills to boot, simply because their powers are all very limited and/or unglorious.

It looks good on paper, but in play, you have a buffer/healer who isn't a burden to the party. You can have a cleric devoted to ass-kicking, but their spells are going to pale before the Wizard's, they're going to be less skilled at what they're usually depended on for, and the only thing they get to compensate is that at least they don't die with a strong breeze like most Wizards.

It looks good on paper, but in play it absolutely, positively kicks ass. They can be played just like you described: healing and helping the party. My players found that type of play boring. So they made clerics into sort of holy warriors, and it worked well. Protective magics make them very hard to kill, and buffs make the strong in the melee. There's room left for utility (spells), so that they won't feel useless in non-combat environment. (Actually, with their strong clerical spells they seem to sometimes dominate even in city environments.)

 

[bloodymage]

Last cleric I met is now a little pile of ash!

 

[Baumi]

@ creamsteak:

Have you checked the Book of Hallowed Might from Monte Cook? There is a Prestige Class espessialy for Cleric/Wizards (or Sorcerers) wich takes care of the problem that they don't get the high Level Spells and are therefore inferior to a single Class Spell-User.

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I never played a Cleric or Wizard above 10th Level, but at lower Level the Cleric cann't really compete spell-wise but as he get higher he become less of an Fighter and more of a spell-caster. All in all I find the two balanced, at least until around Level 10.

And about Damaging Spells ... it seems that the Cleric can compete with these the arcane Spells at higher Levels, but I think the real Advantage of Wizards/Sorcerers are the Utilitiy Spells like Invisibility, Teleport, Fly, ....

 

[Tzarevitch]

Perfect sense. It's just that our gaming style is very laid back, and people just started making remarks that said player cleric has his god on a speed dial. IMO it's not just the miracle; miracle is just icing on the cake of clerics powers.

In different circumstances I might restrict the clerics player with RPing penalties, but as it is now RPing isn't very strong in this campaign, so I've let it pass. When I began this campaign I decided along the lines that "everything goes". So we've had all kinds of wacky (muched or twinked out) characters. Cleric has proven to be a very strong combination that has very good damage dealing and the best punishment taking, so to speak.

Only class I had to ban because of disruptivness was the Archmage. One archmage sun elf character just wasn't fun for anyone. Save DCs in the 40s wasn't fun for others, especially since the said mage specialized in instakills.

Next time try Spell Turning. I can't think of a single insta-kill spell that cannot be turned by spell turning. Let the archmage eat his own DC 40 save.

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

I have to disagree with the commentary that the cleric is mighter than the wizard. I play a Ranger1, Paladin1, Cleric 15 and I have seen a wizard in my party totally burn out a foe's Brooch of Shielding and still inflict over a hundred points of damage to his foe through magic missiles and other spells, and the wizard was not even high enough level to cast Timestop. If you use the correct combination of prestige classes (Incantrix, Red Wizard and Archmage in particular) plus the right combo of spells a wizard can generate ungodly damage with very high spell DCs.

In terms of spell power, the cleric is pathetic until he can get to 9th lvl flamestrike. Searing light does pathetic damage unless your foe is undead, it is single-target, and it requires a hit roll to boot. The only reason it is a decent spell is it is all you have.

Magic stone is not a good spell either. It is ok at 1st-3rd levels because no one is doing much damage then with spells anyway but it looses to Magic Missile regardless of how you slice it.

Some domains do improve the cleric's spell damage potential but not by much. Remember you get 1 domain spell per level. The wizard gets as many spells as he chooses to memorize.

Normally, the cleric only has a few good damage spells and ALL are high level. Flamestrike is 5th and while it has a bigger damage cap that is only because it is higher level. If you heighten a fireball to 5th level you also get the bigger damage cap AND you have a much bigger area-of-effect AND better range.

Harm is always effective but it requires the cleric close and touch his foe.

Blade Barrier is an excellent spell but it is hard to employ because it is a damage spell with a save to avoid component. It is also VERY slow to cast. The upside is that the spell lingers for a while.

Flamestrike is probably the best cleric spell. It has excellent damage, good range and a HUGE area-of-effect. It is also however quite high level unless you are a druid or get it through a domain.

Destruction is probably the cleric's second best spell. It too is quite high level, and is a Save-or-Die and take damage even if you do save. It also however is 7th lvl and is a single-target spell and is subject to Spell Turning.

Gate is easily one of the mightiest spells anywhere, but the wizard gets it too so it is a wash for comparison purposes.

Miracle - I really don't know what the designers were thinking with this one. It is not as versatile as Wish is but that rarely is an issue because most of the things you'd want to do with it don't cost xp. This spell generally beats Wish hands down unless the DM remembers to enforce the fact that a Miracle is a direct plea to the cleric's god. The deity can and should refuse the plea unless the cleric has a good reason.

Commune is better than Contact Other Plane, but remember that Commune only gets answers if the deity knows and feels like answering and you ONLY get 1 per level. With Contact Other Plane you can just ask someone else as often as you like so long as you can make the Int check. I don't rate Commune as powerful by any stretch so I won't include it.

Beyond these you are hard pressed to find any trully powerful cleric spell. That is a total of seven powerful spells compared to the wizard's hordes of spells. Also remember that many of the wizard's best combat spells are much lower level so they can be metamagicked easily. A maximized fireball from an 11th level wizard (60 pts of damage from a 6th lvl slot) statistically does more damage than any spell a cleric can cast until he hits 15th lvl and can mazimixe a flamestrike (with an 8th lvl slot). Harm is the only cleric spell that can theoretically do that kind of damage, but only at range touch, to one target and only if you can hit it. A cleric is hard pressed to put useful metamagic on ANY of his combat spells because they are all so high level.

Also remember that bcause the cleric combat spells are so high level the cleric can only cast a few of them. I run out of direct damage spells far faster than our party wizard spells.

Clerics in general have much better defensive spells, curative magic and temporally-based divinations (i.e. divinations that see through time). Wizards have far better general combat spells, transport magic non-temporally based divination magic. They also mave a much wider array of spells in general. Domains can generate a slight exception but at only one extra domain spell per level it is pretty inconsequential over all.

Tzarevitch

 

[Numion]

Next time try Spell Turning. I can't think of a single insta-kill spell that cannot be turned by spell turning. Let the archmage eat his own DC 40 save.

Tzarevitch

Wail of the Banshee and Weird. IIRC even Disintegrate isn't stopped by Spell Turning because it's a ray and not targeted effect. (Sage ruling, I ruled otherwise)

Not many creatures have spell turning though.

 

[Numion]

Beyond these you are hard pressed to find any trully powerful cleric spell. That is a total of seven powerful spells compared to the wizard's hordes of spells. Also remember that many of the wizard's best combat spells are much lower level so they can be metamagicked easily. A maximized fireball from an 11th level wizard (60 pts of damage from a 6th lvl slot) statistically does more damage than any spell a cleric can cast until he hits 15th lvl and can mazimixe a flamestrike (with an 8th lvl slot). Harm is the only cleric spell that can theoretically do that kind of damage, but only at range touch, to one target and only if you can hit it. A cleric is hard pressed to put useful metamagic on ANY of his combat spells because they are all so high level.

Your math is a bit off. 13th level cleric could empower his flame strike (7th level spell) and cause an average of 66.5 damage, more than the 60 point you mentioned. And remember also that any cleric who wants can be immune to fireball, with Protection from Elements. Not so with the wizard, who's going to take divine damage from Flame Strike.

As I said before, these blasts are just a bonus to the cleric. His strength is in buffs that let him kick ass, and protective magics. Any mage is hard pressed to damage a cleric. Death Wards, Protection from Elements, Immunity to Elements, Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity.. etc.. all these make the cleric very hard to kill.

edit: about miracle: since all his power comes from his deity anyway, why should the miracle be a special case to be decided by the DM? You spend the slot, you can cast the spell. The spells description is quite straightforward if you use the minor effects (eg. replicating minor level spells, not the 5000xp a pop effects.)