Wizards vs. Clerics

[Numion]

In my opinion these sorts of uses for the Miracle spell probably wouldn't be granted and might even cause the cleric to fall into disfavor. Roleplaying can be used to balance the cleric class, however while I feel it is perfectly fine for a DM to balance a class that might be more powerful than most with roleplaying in their own individual game, I think game designers have a responsibility not to rely on roleplay for balance and should strive for the best balance mechanically. Does that make sense?

Perfect sense. It's just that our gaming style is very laid back, and people just started making remarks that said player cleric has his god on a speed dial. IMO it's not just the miracle; miracle is just icing on the cake of clerics powers.

In different circumstances I might restrict the clerics player with RPing penalties, but as it is now RPing isn't very strong in this campaign, so I've let it pass. When I began this campaign I decided along the lines that "everything goes". So we've had all kinds of wacky (muched or twinked out) characters. Cleric has proven to be a very strong combination that has very good damage dealing and the best punishment taking, so to speak.

Only class I had to ban because of disruptivness was the Archmage. One archmage sun elf character just wasn't fun for anyone. Save DCs in the 40s wasn't fun for others, especially since the said mage specialized in instakills.

 

[zorlag]

Clerics

Low level clerics have strengths as well. They can fight pretty well even without buffs if you invest one feat on exotic weapon or have War domain. They absolutely devastate undead with proper feats and equipment. Hold Person at level 3 is first "insta-kill" type spell on the game. Domain abilities are pretty good, Death effect at level 1 is funky (death touch ability is considered death effect and it's target cannot be raised with Raise Dead spell). Magic stones, Magic Weapon spell and Searing Light spell makes ranged combat pretty good. If you have Travel Domain, you have access to Wizard goodies like Fly and Teleport! And of course for melee you have trusty Bull's Strength and Endurance. You probably can take more punishment than your fighter or barbarian buddy and have same or better AC as well... Of course, don't forget those Wands of Cure Light Wounds, they are your best friend.

Z.

 

[Zappo]

IMO the cleric is slightly more powerful, so that players take it because the concept isn't generally very attractive. The wizard though isn't far behind, because while it loses in terms of physical combat it has way better spells, surpassing the cleric in every field save healing.

 

[Numion]

IMO the cleric is slightly more powerful, so that players take it because the concept isn't generally very attractive. The wizard though isn't far behind, because while it loses in terms of physical combat it has way better spells, surpassing the cleric in every field save healing.

I don't know.. wizard is too short on protective magics. Wizards worst enemy is another wizard, since it's difficult to protect against spells. In protective spells the cleric is superior.

Turning isn't even an issue BTW. My archer-cleric put a 8 in his charisma, havent regretted since

 

[Shard O'Glase]

IMO the cleric is slightly more powerful, so that players take it because the concept isn't generally very attractive. The wizard though isn't far behind, because while it loses in terms of physical combat it has way better spells, surpassing the cleric in every field save healing.

Besides protective magics as numion pointed out the cleric absolutely smacks the wiz down in divination. Scrys and direct info gathering is the limit of the wizard, the cleric has the "hey God" line of spells sure to annoy any DM, and basically make the wizard look pathetic in divination.

And I'd say the wizards spells aren't close to being way better. Slightly better maybe but that is well more than made up for by the cleric actually knowing the spells and the wizard only knowing the ones in his spellbook.
Take a look at thw wizards spellbook in your party at level and look at the 30 spells the wizard knows and compare it to the couple hundred the cleric knows and see which spell list is way better now. Sure fly beats out air walk 3rd to 4th level, base 90 move compared to ordinary move and other comparisons can be made, the difference is the cleric has all the slightly inferior spells
the wizard has a few on the slightly better spells, add in that many of the clerics spells actually aren't inferior and are actually superior and it realy looks bad for the wiz in a strict compare/contrast argument. I think all spell casters are too good though.

 

[Oni]

I wish they had given wizards some sort of reactionary defenses against other magic users, at least against other arcane magic users. I don't think this would disrupt game balance too much to make mages less effective against their own kind (or more effective in defending against their own kind). Even if it was just the inclusion of some spells that could be used in reaction or a revamp of counterspelling.

 

[Dr. NRG]

Their reactionary defense against other magic users is called counterspelling. Admittedly, it's tough to be sure that you have the correct spell on hand, but it really can work wonders...

 

[Oni]

Their reactionary defense against other magic users is called counterspelling. Admittedly, it's tough to be sure that you have the correct spell on hand, but it really can work wonders...

That is not quite what I meant by reactionary. Counterspelling requires planning ahead and waiting for the opportunity. I meant some sort of defensive action they could take, especially if it could bring some of the granduer of the dueling mages to Dnd, as it is now it's all bang your dead.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

That's funny. I would have rather fought the 13th level vampire wizard solo with my 10th level cleric, because I wouldn't have enough spells to protect everyone else.

I cannot really think of anyone who would not want to use a Cleric over a Wizard when fighting a Vampire. A good turning check would have sent that vampire running, though you would have admittedly needed to roll quite high and have a decent Charisma bonus. Failing that, you could also use your Spontaneous casting to inflict some nasty touch attack spells on the Vampire. All of that comees before counting spells you may have chosen specifically to deal with Undead.

Anyway, when trying to decide which class is better, you should probably do more then just put them in a 1v1 fight. Besides, how often do 1v1 fights pop up in a typical campaign? Here are some things you should look into before deciding whihc class is broken.

1) The Orc Battle Test
Put both characters, at about level 4 to 6 against a group of 10 Orcs in a 100 by 100 grid. Every time an Orc is dropped, spawn in another one. Compare the final body count once each dies.

2) The Giant Battle Test
Put both characters in the same room with three Hill Giants at about character level 9 to 12. Every time a Giant is dropped, spawn in another. Compare the final body count once each dies.

3) Skill Constest
Prepare an obstacle course where the Jump, Swim, Climb, Balance, and Ride skills are required. Set the character levels at about 7 to 10, and use check DC's of about 17 to 23. Figure out who can get through in a faster amount of time.

4) Absorbancy Test
Take both character sheets, and place them in one litre of 2% milk. Remove the sheet after two minutes. Measure the quantity of milk remaining after removing the sheet.

5) The Dragon Test
Put both characters in a room with a Great Wyrm Dragon of your choice (same dragon for both). Figure out which one survives the longest and inflicts the most damage.

6) The Class battle Test
Set the character levels at about 15. Set each character against one member of each other class. Figure out which one has a better survival rate.

You may need to run each test multiple times. If one class consistantly comes out ahead more often, then the class is imbalanced.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Rary the Traitor]

IMO the cleric is slightly more powerful, so that players take it because the concept isn't generally very attractive. The wizard though isn't far behind, because while it loses in terms of physical combat it has way better spells, surpassing the cleric in every field save healing.

Clerics are also better than wizards at divination (mostly because of Communion), and calling (since the called outsider isn't allowed to make a save, and they get Lesser Planar Ally at spell level 4, while wizards get Lesser Planar Binding at spell level 5).