Wizards vs. Psions at Level 20

[Wolfwood2]

Possibly.

Then again, the psion has several counter-measures (especially given that the Psion presumably knows his own weaknesses). One of the the most obvious is Personal Mind Blank (at a lower level than the Wiz, BTW.). With that up, the wizard can't use divination to know he will be fighting a psion.

In a stand-up take-down fight, I'd put my money on the Psion.

Both alone or both with an adventuring party?

 

[Nail]

Both alone or both with an adventuring party?

Alone.

With an adventuring party (and "IME"), a wizard is more useful than a psion. Note I use the word "useful", not "powerful".

 

[Wolfwood2]

Alone.

With an adventuring party (and "IME"), a wizard is more useful than a psion. Note I use the word "useful", not "powerful".

Well, the classes are balanced towards being with an adventuring party, so that's really the standard that should be used.

What's the difference between useful and powerful in this context anyway? And which one of them corresponds to, "Better at accomplishing the mission," which is the really important part?

 

[KarinsDad]

Possibly.

Then again, the psion has several counter-measures (especially given that the Psion presumably knows his own weaknesses). One of the the most obvious is Personal Mind Blank (at a lower level than the Wiz, BTW.). With that up, the wizard can't use divination to know he will be fighting a psion.

Good point.

In a stand-up take-down fight, I'd put my money on the Psion.

I would too. Assuming the Wizard does not know about the fight ahead of time. But, Project Image is tough for most Psions to beat shy of Dispel Psionics which might not be the first power the Psion thinks to use.

 

[Bacris]

Let's not forget the stupid-broken spells a wizard has a psion doesn't - such as Gate, Polymorph Any Object, and the like.

It's hard for a psion max-augmenting a power to meet the raw power of some of the 7+ level spells a Wizard can pull out.

 

[superkurt13]

I think we're getting away from what I was originally asking. I never meant to see who would win in a fight because that depends on too many variables. What I was trying to ask was in a normal game of D&D run by your average DM, who is generally more powerful at level 20. If you were putting together a party and you already had all other roles filled, who would you rahter have: a wizard or a psion? Who can do more damage, who can better help the party survive, who can

So far a lot of what I have heard favors the psion because of the flexibility. A lot of the arguements in favor of wizards seen to be prefixed with the condition "if he knows what he will be fighting". I don't know about your DMs but mine has never told me what situations he will be putting us in ahead of time.

 

[Alceste]

It depends on many factors, but I really think an anti-psion prepared wizard can have a significant edge.

For example, if the Wizard has Psychic Turmoil or Greater Psychic Turmoil in his repetoire and prepared, that can be a little bothersome to the Psion at real close range. For example, if the Psion wanted to do a touch power or a psionic weapon against the Wizard, he would have to go through this area in order to do that.

Also, Globe of Invulnerability will totally negate any 4th or lower level psionic power which tends to be about half of the Psion's powers.

If the Wizard can manage to attack the Psion with an Evards, PT, and GoI, the Psion might be in serious trouble if he does not have Teleport or Ethereal Travel of some kind (Astral Caravan, Ectoplasmic Form, or Dimension Door will not cut it). Once captured, the Wizard backs away and throws a Dimensional Anchor at the Psion and the Psion could be in big trouble. PT is placed on a point in space, so the Wizard could be some distance away protected, even behind a wall and still be taking out the Psion.

The Wizard would just have to remain hidden (Mind Blank, Greater Invisibility) and survive long enough to totally drain the Psion of PP (about 10 rounds, 20 if the Psion had not used any PP that day and uses none in the combat) whereas the Psion would not only be trapped and have to survive the Wizard's additional attacks, but he would also be unable to use half of his powers if still in the Globe. There are only a few powers that would allow a Psion to escape a trap like this (e.g. Timeless Body, Null Psionics Field in campaigns were magic and psionics are the same, etc.).


Granted, a Psion might be able to dispatch a Wizard as well, but the Wizard should win if he knows ahead of time (divinations) that he will be fighting a Psion. It is only when the Wizard is not prepared to fight a Psion where the Psion should have a significant edge.

This is a very good breakdown. I also agree there is no doubt that if both know that they will meet at X place and time (ala showdown), the wizard has a clear advantage. In a "random" encounter, the psion prob has an advantage thou because they deal damage slightly faster.

Regarding which one I want in my party, the wizard. Regarding party usefulness, wizards simply bring more to the table than a psion. The breath of spells availible to a wizard is staggering.

 

[Nail]

Well, the classes are balanced towards being with an adventuring party, so that's really the standard that should be used.

This depends on who's doing the evaluating. If you're interesting in making the best PC possible, and you want to be self-reliant, Psion is the more powerful choice.

If you tend to be a planner, who works with his party to plan the best strategy - and then you follow thru on that planning, wizard is the better choice. Not more powerful; just better.

For the record, most players I've seen are not of this second type.

What's the difference between useful and powerful in this context anyway? And which one of them corresponds to, "Better at accomplishing the mission," which is the really important part?

Usually, for most players I've seen, being the most powerful is better than being the most useful. The distinction? Planning and execution. Most players get by on raw power (and luck!), rather than cleverness.

There are exceptions.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I think we're getting away from what I was originally asking. I never meant to see who would win in a fight because that depends on too many variables. What I was trying to ask was in a normal game of D&D run by your average DM, who is generally more powerful at level 20. If you were putting together a party and you already had all other roles filled, who would you rahter have: a wizard or a psion? Who can do more damage, who can better help the party survive, who can

So far a lot of what I have heard favors the psion because of the flexibility. A lot of the arguements in favor of wizards seen to be prefixed with the condition "if he knows what he will be fighting". I don't know about your DMs but mine has never told me what situations he will be putting us in ahead of time.

What do you mean by "ahead of time"?

Generally the outline for big adventures is:

1. Get attacked by some weak stuff without warning.

2. Investigate further, finding out more about what is going on.

3. Thwart the big bad in some major way.

4. Final confrontation with the big villain, but which point you should have at least some idea what you're up against.

If you're going through all four steps in a single adventuring day, okay that's a problem for the wizard. That would seem pretty non-standard, though.

Also, if you don't know what you're up against, a smart wizard leaves some empty spell slots to prepare between encounters.

 

[werk]

Most players get by on raw power (and luck!), rather than cleverness.

I resemble that parenthetical notation!