Blackwarder
Adventurer
So just divide the squares into quarters, and we both get what we want.
Speaking of maps, I realy love those maps that are more like a painting of the rooms, with beds, tables, fire pits etc shown directly on it.
Warder
D&D 5E Wondering Monsters 12/12/13: Mapping the World
So just divide the squares into quarters, and we both get what we want.
Speaking of maps, I realy love those maps that are more like a painting of the rooms, with beds, tables, fire pits etc shown directly on it.
Warder
Li Shenron
Legend
Yep, I could get behind that. Though they do need to be careful: they'd probably need to reduce the size of the square on the printed page (so the maps still fit on the page), but need to make sure that the grid doesn't become so cluttered that it is harder to read.
(Obviously, I just had to drop your "1 yard = 1 metre" suggestion. That's just the nitpicky mathematician in me.)
Count me on board with the 1 square = 1 pace idea. As for yards vs. meters, it's true that they aren't exactly the same, but they're close enough that it doesn't matter for D&D's purposes.
The article could have been good if it was not tainted with that much USA-nism. I mean, the scales in a medieval setting are NOT those of a late 19th century continent-state.
Think about it : the Greek world at the time of Homer was probably not bigger than 100 000 sq mi. That's the size of Colorado. And there, you had dozen of kingdoms, thousands of independant city states.
Likewise, if there was somewhat big realms during the middle-age (France, England, Poland...), there was also plenty of much, much smaller states. Have a look at Europe circa 1300 : http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1300/index.html
Something else : if you have the chance to hike in places like northern Italy or southern France, or just to go in a real wild area anywhere in the world, you will realize that "ten miles square" is BIG, and that many villages, and ruins may be hidden in such an area while still keeping a "wild, underpopulated" aspect. Especially if there are mountains or forests in the area. Or both.
And if you happen to be somewhat encumbered, the subjective distances just keep growing and growing. The "you can carry 5 time your STR score without problem" rule is the most silly rule ever made.
Now, if you have some roman-build road, with conveniently spaced inns, the trip may be much more easy. Otherwise, if you add bandits and monsters like in any D&D setting (especially the "point of light" kind, think Afghanistan, without the logistics of a superpower's army to help you.
Think about it : the Greek world at the time of Homer was probably not bigger than 100 000 sq mi. That's the size of Colorado. And there, you had dozen of kingdoms, thousands of independant city states.
Likewise, if there was somewhat big realms during the middle-age (France, England, Poland...), there was also plenty of much, much smaller states. Have a look at Europe circa 1300 : http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1300/index.html
Something else : if you have the chance to hike in places like northern Italy or southern France, or just to go in a real wild area anywhere in the world, you will realize that "ten miles square" is BIG, and that many villages, and ruins may be hidden in such an area while still keeping a "wild, underpopulated" aspect. Especially if there are mountains or forests in the area. Or both.
And if you happen to be somewhat encumbered, the subjective distances just keep growing and growing. The "you can carry 5 time your STR score without problem" rule is the most silly rule ever made.
Now, if you have some roman-build road, with conveniently spaced inns, the trip may be much more easy. Otherwise, if you add bandits and monsters like in any D&D setting (especially the "point of light" kind, think Afghanistan, without the logistics of a superpower's army to help you.
Libramarian
Adventurer
This was actually a really good article and made me realize how uselessly huge most D&D settings are.
In the past when I've run hex crawls at 6 miles per hex it's been very abstract and not very imaginative because I can't really describe what a journey would look and feel like at that scale. It's also unusual to have more than one encounter per day so in game terms it's like a series of 5 minute workdays. I think a much smaller map scale (1 mile or even 1/2 mile per hex), maybe combined with a rule where you can't actually rest unless you find an inn, would solve both of those problems.
There's a trail that goes through a ravine from my house to an off-leash dog park. That's a little over a mile. I can actually relate to a walk of that distance.
edited to add:
The Elder Scrolls Oblivion and Skyrim have 8 or 9 cities in a gameworld about 16 square miles, and they feel pretty huge and epic. They're basically a Ten Towns of Icewind Dale game.
In the past when I've run hex crawls at 6 miles per hex it's been very abstract and not very imaginative because I can't really describe what a journey would look and feel like at that scale. It's also unusual to have more than one encounter per day so in game terms it's like a series of 5 minute workdays. I think a much smaller map scale (1 mile or even 1/2 mile per hex), maybe combined with a rule where you can't actually rest unless you find an inn, would solve both of those problems.
There's a trail that goes through a ravine from my house to an off-leash dog park. That's a little over a mile. I can actually relate to a walk of that distance.
edited to add:
The Elder Scrolls Oblivion and Skyrim have 8 or 9 cities in a gameworld about 16 square miles, and they feel pretty huge and epic. They're basically a Ten Towns of Icewind Dale game.
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howandwhy99
Adventurer
This was a good article. A nice tangent from monster description and into PCs as wandering monsters. It finally brought the DM's map back to the game by showing how they can be grasped from our own experiences.
For me, most published campaign settings are gonzo-sized. Far outsized for how the distribution of medieval territories spread based on necessities like food, defense, and safe transport speeds. Most folks lived within 1 mile of their birthplace their whole lives for good reason.
The 3 map sizes suggested should not be game requirements IMO. So much about the map the PCs explore is its high detail near the starting location, but vast scalability throughout. The overland map zooms in to the same map holding every page of dungeon map, battle map, and even creature/item maps needed.
Here's an example of how I might start these:[sblock]Think: Migration Patterns.
1st, the multiverse, plane, planet creation, along with solids, liquids, gases, gravity, and other near constants within the standard campaign timeline - human coming of age to old age basically.
2nd, Surface creation with plate creation, tectonic movement with vertical terrain, liquid distribution and cycling, which ties into atmosphere causing land erosion, climate zones, and terrain types.
3rd, Population migration, most likely starting with vegetation, then insects and animals.
4th, Monster territory creation on the local scale map taking into account previously determined elements like terrain, climate, food sources, and other life necessities on the larger map. Types of territory and lairs, self-constructed or otherwise, are by creature alignment, culture and technology. This step determines your campaign dungeon level zones for the wilderness as well as mass lair locations like cities and the proverbial dungeons. Humans typically set up shop in the plains, but are traditionally in D&D the most open to adaptation (demi-human means human-kin after all).
5th, PC starting location and starting adventures occur in level 1 zones, traditionally in the borderlands. Places on the edge of civilization the PCs lawfully defend and search out and delve into the dungeons of scary monsters opposed to them.
For human culture we can steal for medieval or medieval-similar cultures of our own past. We don't have to stick with Europe, but those towns are usually one wagon's ride away from the next and never far from a defensible fortification. Farming methods help determine arable land acreage needed to support number of population yearly. Hunting and gathering cultures are going to be much, much smaller. Defenses not only require everyone nearby to be able to reach them quickly, but are expensive to build and maintain. Think the mott and bailey in Hommlet. It's right in town and still growing. Someone's old, fallen in moathouse is where the monsters have crept into after its abandoning.
Last thing, old wargames used 30 or 24 mile hexes because they were close to human movement in a day without a forced march causing fatigue. I think there were probably wargamer adherents in both camps, but largely these numbers were due to their large number of divisors, wargames uses fractions for speed. 30 has 1/2, 1/3, 1/5, 1/6, 1/10, 1/15. 24 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8, 1/12. I don't personally uses hexes except for quick overlays to measure PCs moving off road. I mean, it's so easy to pre-measure the lines on the map for distance and things like size volume after creation. And these things can be rated too. --Oh, and also measures should be whatever is easiest for a player and player group, metric or imperial.[/sblock]The big take away here is: Rules should reference the map, the game board, the game's Field of Play.
For instance, Teleport has a mischance of 18%? Roll 1d100 for miles randomly determined from where you are casting the spell on the map. Summoning calls on "nearby animals" to help? What animals are shown to be in range? Tracking someone through the forest, but you've gotten lost? The DM has your true position on their map, and yours and the quarry's trails marked. Having a actual campaign map to explore means roaming aimlessly around might actually result in running into something hard to find - something it might have taken far more time to learn of (like Nulb).
For me, most published campaign settings are gonzo-sized. Far outsized for how the distribution of medieval territories spread based on necessities like food, defense, and safe transport speeds. Most folks lived within 1 mile of their birthplace their whole lives for good reason.
The 3 map sizes suggested should not be game requirements IMO. So much about the map the PCs explore is its high detail near the starting location, but vast scalability throughout. The overland map zooms in to the same map holding every page of dungeon map, battle map, and even creature/item maps needed.
Here's an example of how I might start these:[sblock]Think: Migration Patterns.
1st, the multiverse, plane, planet creation, along with solids, liquids, gases, gravity, and other near constants within the standard campaign timeline - human coming of age to old age basically.
2nd, Surface creation with plate creation, tectonic movement with vertical terrain, liquid distribution and cycling, which ties into atmosphere causing land erosion, climate zones, and terrain types.
3rd, Population migration, most likely starting with vegetation, then insects and animals.
4th, Monster territory creation on the local scale map taking into account previously determined elements like terrain, climate, food sources, and other life necessities on the larger map. Types of territory and lairs, self-constructed or otherwise, are by creature alignment, culture and technology. This step determines your campaign dungeon level zones for the wilderness as well as mass lair locations like cities and the proverbial dungeons. Humans typically set up shop in the plains, but are traditionally in D&D the most open to adaptation (demi-human means human-kin after all).
5th, PC starting location and starting adventures occur in level 1 zones, traditionally in the borderlands. Places on the edge of civilization the PCs lawfully defend and search out and delve into the dungeons of scary monsters opposed to them.
For human culture we can steal for medieval or medieval-similar cultures of our own past. We don't have to stick with Europe, but those towns are usually one wagon's ride away from the next and never far from a defensible fortification. Farming methods help determine arable land acreage needed to support number of population yearly. Hunting and gathering cultures are going to be much, much smaller. Defenses not only require everyone nearby to be able to reach them quickly, but are expensive to build and maintain. Think the mott and bailey in Hommlet. It's right in town and still growing. Someone's old, fallen in moathouse is where the monsters have crept into after its abandoning.
Last thing, old wargames used 30 or 24 mile hexes because they were close to human movement in a day without a forced march causing fatigue. I think there were probably wargamer adherents in both camps, but largely these numbers were due to their large number of divisors, wargames uses fractions for speed. 30 has 1/2, 1/3, 1/5, 1/6, 1/10, 1/15. 24 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8, 1/12. I don't personally uses hexes except for quick overlays to measure PCs moving off road. I mean, it's so easy to pre-measure the lines on the map for distance and things like size volume after creation. And these things can be rated too. --Oh, and also measures should be whatever is easiest for a player and player group, metric or imperial.[/sblock]The big take away here is: Rules should reference the map, the game board, the game's Field of Play.
For instance, Teleport has a mischance of 18%? Roll 1d100 for miles randomly determined from where you are casting the spell on the map. Summoning calls on "nearby animals" to help? What animals are shown to be in range? Tracking someone through the forest, but you've gotten lost? The DM has your true position on their map, and yours and the quarry's trails marked. Having a actual campaign map to explore means roaming aimlessly around might actually result in running into something hard to find - something it might have taken far more time to learn of (like Nulb).
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
Im not playing a board game so I don't need grids or even standard scales. Right up to the 19th century most maps were hugely inaccurate and I like that aspect. I like the PCs sketching their idea of the surroundings and getting scale and placement wrong.
If I need a building or dungeon I'll draw one on graph paper but anything outside is just rough sketch ...
If I need a building or dungeon I'll draw one on graph paper but anything outside is just rough sketch ...
Li Shenron
Legend
I think this is a good point. I instantly liked it, when our DM several years ago introduced a homebrew setting by saying "forget about maps beyond the scale of a village, nobody has the knowledge, the measuring instruments, or the time to make them accurate".
I just played a game with travel time in days or hours instead of miles. I basically just eyeballed the map and gave the answers that suited me. Sure it was wrong when looking at the map scale, but it felt right. None of the players lifted an eyebrow at all to my impromptu changing of map scale.
I don't think making buildings and absolutely not dungeons to scale makes any sense either. Why would the players care if the room is 30' or 35' deep? Such precision is wasteful and just slows down the game. A really rough sketch* and an ok description is what's necessary.
*If you try to make a sketch of the floorplan of your current house, you will notice that it takes at least two-three tries before it gets even remotely correct.
Balesir
Adventurer
If you're going large on maps, I like the HârnWorld approach. You have three types of map, of which two are really distinct (provided separately):
1) GM maps that are the "real deal" - detailed and comprehensive.
2) "Poetic" maps that are representations of actual physical objects in the game world, given to the players when their character buys one. These are sometimes almost recognisable as the bit of GM map they represent
3) "Memory" maps that are copies of bits of the GM maps that players are given when their character actually visits the area mapped.
This is a "deluxe" approach, but it's lots of work if the maps aren't commercially available.
1) GM maps that are the "real deal" - detailed and comprehensive.
2) "Poetic" maps that are representations of actual physical objects in the game world, given to the players when their character buys one. These are sometimes almost recognisable as the bit of GM map they represent
3) "Memory" maps that are copies of bits of the GM maps that players are given when their character actually visits the area mapped.
This is a "deluxe" approach, but it's lots of work if the maps aren't commercially available.
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