D&D General World Building and Magic

[Lakesidefantasy]

Back during the original D&DNext Playtest I ran my first 5E game. In it, something one of my players said stood out to me ever since. He said: it's odd that no one bats an eye when they find out I'm a warlock, a great old one warlock to boot. I recently started thinking about it again.

Has anyone thought about changing up how NPCs react to different characters based on the kinds of magic they know? Like the whole "White Magic/Black Magic" divide. Has anyone done such in their games? How do normal people in your games react to magic?

Yes, I've done this, but it usually is not much fun. It usually creates a bit of friction between me (the Dungeon Master) and the Player. Real-world interpersonal friction, and I've learned the less of that at the table the better. I believe you need Player buy-in for this kind of thing to work.

My Brother Vortigern character in post #28 above is in some ways handicapped because he tries not to cast necromantic spells in front of his clerical watchdogs. I dig this kind game play so I'm bought-in. Indeed I asked for this, the Dungeon Master didn't force it on me.

It sounds like your Player is bought-in and may enjoy it if the two of you work something out. Maybe this Player would like to try and hide their affiliation, or maybe they just want to freak out the squares without consequences. They planted the seed--see what grows and have fun.

EDIT: I see now that this is probably not a current game; so, "Your Mileage May Vary".

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

In the past I've run many games for kids in afterschool programs. I've learned that it's important to support them in their creative endeavors for a better gaming experience.

I had one kid who really wanted to play a skeleton. My first reaction of course was hell no! There are all kinds of problems with that. But instead, I remembered a lineage from Van Richten's Guide, the Reborn, that could approximate such a character. So he rolled it up and called it Deadalus. (Yeah, little dude. Killer. ) He didn't have a backstory or any explanation for why Deadalus was a skeleton. He didn't care, he just wanted to be a skeleton.

But then I had to ask him what he thought other characters, non-player characters, would think about a skeleton walking through the streets of town entering inns to drink ginger ale and sarsaparilla (has it always been spelled like that!?). He didn't have an answer of course so we kind of ignored it. I did bring in a few other reborn skeletons during his adventures to try and build a story around his condition, but we never got to explore it further. He did adopt a small one-armed bandit skeleton as a sidekick named Little Buddy, it was cool.

I learned from that experience that it's not my job to force the world onto my players, but instead to let them force their way into my world. I've had more fun ever since I adopted that attitude.

 

[Voadam]

here I am getting excited that someone based a game on the Lithuanian crusade - but it looks like a typo

My phone likes to autocorrect Lothian to Lithuanian.

The Lothian empire from Ptolus is fairly Byzantium based in my conception.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In the past I've run many games for kids in afterschool programs. I've learned that it's important to support them in their creative endeavors for a better gaming experience.

I had one kid who really wanted to play a skeleton. My first reaction of course was hell no! There are all kinds of problems with that. But instead, I remembered a lineage from Van Richten's Guide, the Reborn, that could approximate such a character. So he rolled it up and called it Deadalus. (Yeah, little dude. Killer. ) He didn't have a backstory or any explanation for why Deadalus was a skeleton. He didn't care, he just wanted to be a skeleton.

But then I had to ask him what he thought other characters, non-player characters, would think about a skeleton walking through the streets of town entering inns to drink ginger ale and sarsaparilla (has it always been spelled like that!?). He didn't have an answer of course so we kind of ignored it. I did bring in a few other reborn skeletons during his adventures to try and build a story around his condition, but we never got to explore it further. He did adopt a small one-armed bandit skeleton as a sidekick named Little Buddy, it was cool.

I learned from that experience that it's not my job to force the world onto my players, but instead to let them force their way into my world. I've had more fun ever since I adopted that attitude.

I play differently with kids too, but applying that theory with adults requires a lot more nuance.

 

[TwoSix]

I agree with this. I always shake my head when I read that some DM's allow their players to play monster races. Drow I can sort of accept as they are elves and not all are Lloth worshippers or slavers. But Orcs, Goblins (PF2 looking at you...), Bullywugs...etc, are going to get jumped the moment they try and enter town - in most settings.

I mean, when I let players play monster races, it's simply because they usually AREN'T monsters in the context of the fantasy world we're playing for this campaign.

Whenever a player of mine picks a race that's well outside the norm and is often considered a "monster", I ask the player whether they want to lean into that definition or would they rather have the race be an acceptable one for this campaign. The majority of the time, they choose to have the race be more acceptable.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I mean, when I let players play monster races, it's simply because they usually AREN'T monsters in the context of the fantasy world we're playing for this campaign.

Whenever a player of mine picks a race that's well outside the norm and is often considered a "monster", I ask the player whether they want to lean into that definition or would they rather have the race be an acceptable one for this campaign. The majority of the time, they choose to have the race be more acceptable.

Exactly. When I play a dragonborn, I'm fine with them being viewed as unusual, e.g. "huh, we don't see many of your kind around here." I'm fine with them mostly keeping to themselves for any of various reasons (one of my favorites is that they had a diaspora after the loss of their homeland, so now small dragonborn enclaves exist all over the place, with no single "center"). I'm even fine with there being reasons people might be tense or uneasy with dragonborn, e.g. their association with Ber and, specifically, with dragons in Zeitgeist, which have been a real problem for Risur over the centuries.

But when I play one, I really am not on board for KOS. I'm not really wanting to have two out of three guards persecute me for race (I'm not even POC and I see too much of that crap IRL), and every other merchant literally pretend I'm not there, something someone on this very forum said he would do to players playing dragonborn characters. (Verbatim: "It's never been a 'problem', not for long anyway. ") The occasional nasty comment, or an enemy talking smack about "lizards" or the like, is perfectly fine--but some folks seem hardcore committed to the idea that humanity has always been a hair's breadth from pulling out torches and pitchforks about the slightest deviations and that's just...it's neither historically accurate (not even in the Medieval Period!) nor particularly enjoyable.

I just wanna be a cool dragon man doing cool dragon man things. Y'know, having magic in his blood; or fighting for truth, justice, and the Bahamutan way; or being a suave and dashing magic swordsman. That sort of thing. I really don't need to have the DM doling out the harshness every single session just because I like to play scaly people and think dragons are just super cool.

 

[Scott Christian]

Back during the original D&DNext Playtest I ran my first 5E game. In it, something one of my players said stood out to me ever since. He said: it's odd that no one bats an eye when they find out I'm a warlock, a great old one warlock to boot. I recently started thinking about it again.

Has anyone thought about changing up how NPCs react to different characters based on the kinds of magic they know? Like the whole "White Magic/Black Magic" divide. Has anyone done such in their games? How do normal people in your games react to magic?

I've definitely done it, but not with D&D. D&D is too much of a hodgepodge to actively try to roleplay such scenarios, with the exception of a small, isolated locale. Religion is the same way; with hundreds of deities, why does anyone care that you worship Helm or Heironeous, or Hera? I mean, even in the adventure paths, they don't really mention this. (Ten Towns had a town of fanatical devotees, but the next town over was non chalant about it.)

The point is, unless you are really going to take the time to craft your own world and change all the rules to reflect that world, you shouldn't bother. It's a shame because there are great roleplaying opportunities to be had going down that path, but it just doesn't work for D&D.

I would like to add that many books do this in a promising way; The Wheel of Time series comes to mind first. When they captured channelers to make use them for their bidding, that was an interesting plot device. But in D&D, with the plethora of magic, magic items, divine magic, which are all intrenched to make the game run smoothly, it's just not possible to do that.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I take a lot of my cues from Earthdawn. There are unwritten rules for non-adventurers.

• Treat all adventurers as heroes in the hopes they lean into it rather than deciding to be villains and level the village.
• Magic is incredibly useful and anyone with it can be both a massive boon to society and a living weapon of mass destruction. Sometimes at the same time. Consider asking if they would provide magical services in trade for what you do. You might get anything from a candle that never goes out or they may be able to magic away that one gravy stain on your best table cloth.
• Encourage them to brag about their exploits. They will almost certainly paint themselves in a positive fashion. If you are lucky they will want to avoid looking like a hypocrite.
• Be sure to talk up the other "heroes" who come to town. Make it seem like there are other adventurers around who might take umbrage at mayhem. Maybe there are some who have recently bragged about their exploits.
• If someone walks in accompanied by a massive predator, ask if they prefer cream or raw meat. Also ask about the predator's preference. And call the town guard.
• talk to everything that walks in your door, especially the ones that are usually non-sapient.
• If anyone seems blatantly evil, be extra nice. And call the town guard.
• If someone goes all "mwahaha" evil, get back and use slings to stone them. Everyone should have a sling. It's a freaking rope and a piece of leather the size of your hand. Don't attack willy nilly, focus on one maniac until they are dead. Do NOT clump up or close with them.
• Evil rarely sticks together so they are likely to leave unconscious people behind. Get an axe & behead them. Send an old person past their prime to do the deed.
• A wise ruler will have signal fires or mirrors between towns. At the very least, it inspires evil not to dawdle.
• A wise mayor doesn't trust the signal network and has their own back up plan. Which probably involves a fast horse ridden by someone related and maybe some magic if they can afford it.

 

[Xeviat]

I take a lot of my cues from Earthdawn. There are unwritten rules for non-adventurers.

• Treat all adventurers as heroes in the hopes they lean into it rather than deciding to be villains and level the village.
• Magic is incredibly useful and anyone with it can be both a massive boon to society and a living weapon of mass destruction. Sometimes at the same time. Consider asking if they would provide magical services in trade for what you do. You might get anything from a candle that never goes out or they may be able to magic away that one gravy stain on your best table cloth.
• Encourage them to brag about their exploits. They will almost certainly paint themselves in a positive fashion. If you are lucky they will want to avoid looking like a hypocrite.
• Be sure to talk up the other "heroes" who come to town. Make it seem like there are other adventurers around who might take umbrage at mayhem. Maybe there are some who have recently bragged about their exploits.
• If someone walks in accompanied by a massive predator, ask if they prefer cream or raw meat. Also ask about the predator's preference. And call the town guard.
• talk to everything that walks in your door, especially the ones that are usually non-sapient.
• If anyone seems blatantly evil, be extra nice. And call the town guard.
• If someone goes all "mwahaha" evil, get back and use slings to stone them. Everyone should have a sling. It's a freaking rope and a piece of leather the size of your hand. Don't attack willy nilly, focus on one maniac until they are dead. Do NOT clump up or close with them.
• Evil rarely sticks together so they are likely to leave unconscious people behind. Get an axe & behead them. Send an old person past their prime to do the deed.
• A wise ruler will have signal fires or mirrors between towns. At the very least, it inspires evil not to dawdle.
• A wise mayor doesn't trust the signal network and has their own back up plan. Which probably involves a fast horse ridden by someone related and maybe some magic if they can afford it.

You know, this has me thinking about the "Saturday Morning D&D" supplement I was thinking of.

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

Take a shot every time I swing into a thread and say "Eberron did it best".

Eberron did it best. The "basic" D&D assumption is that magic is a pretty common phenomenon that anyone with aptitude can use and it works in reliable, codifiable ways. That means it's basically just an extra set of the laws of physics on top of what laws of physics D&D implicitly inherits from real life.

If so, the peoples of the world would simply integrate magic into their understanding of "science" and the practical application thereof (AKA "technology"). A "realistic" D&D world should look like Eberron if the following assumptions hold true:

1) Magic is not a new phenomenon in your setting (contrast with Shadowrun or Deadlands)

2) Civilization itself is neither new nor threatened (contrast with "Sword and Sandal" ancient adventures like Conan the Barbarian or King Kull or post apocalyptic fantasy like Dark Sun or Dying Earth)

3) The use of magic is not restricted to a small group (contrast with Dragon Age or Harry Potter)



In my personal setting, which deliberately set out to treat the modern era (15th-20th centuries) the way most D&D treats the medieval era (9th-14th centuries), the world is undergoing a its equivalent of the scientific revolution and it is heavily inspired by Neil Stephenson's "Baroque Cycle". Though the characters in the world don't know it, "magic" is also known as "the anthropic principle" and "the suspension of disbelief"; it is the "force" that changes random happenstance into stories, myths and legends. Magic "happens" in the gulf between expectation and reality, and magicians excel at planting those expectations into peoples' heads.

If magic is an art, and all art is propaganda, magic in my setting is simply the application of propaganda on the physical world instead of the mind.