D&D (2024) World Building Magic, Magic Items, The DMG, and joined up thinking.

[UngainlyTitan]

One of the things I loved initially, when I first read through the 5e PHB was some of the world building in some of the spells. Things like casting Teleportation Circle for a Year and a Day to get a permanent circle, similarly for Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum and other spells. There are some that I feel are underwhelming, like Demiplane.

But I still really love the basic idea, however, in practice, they are impracticable for the PC's. If you are trying to stop the Apocalypse, taking a year out, or retiring your ninth level mage to create a permanent teleport circle, is not a particularly attractive option.

It does not also make sense when one looks at other rules for the DM, like for scroll creation and magic items. For instance:
A scroll of Teleportation Circle (per Xanathar's) is 5k gp and 4 weeks work and a Helm of Teleportation take 10 weeks and 2k gp to make. Contrast that with the year needed for the Teleportation Circle and the cost of more than 18k gp.

What this tell me is:
That the developers never thought about this holistically, and probably do not use these rules in their home games.
That either scrolls are over priced or permanent magic items are under priced.
And that it would be better to make a magic item that casts Teleport Circle once per day on touch, fix it to a pillar and pay a peasant a couple of gold pieces once per day (on completion) to touch the item to get a permanent circle than hanging about oneself and spending 18k on the cost.

So I would like a forth coming DMG to address this. I like world building magic but I think DMs would do with more guidance as to how to incorporate it in to the campaign (what level is it appropriate to allow the players access to a permanent teleportation circle, for instance).

So what do you folks think? Do you like these kind of spells? would you like to see more useful way of making that aspect of them useful to player?

EDIT:
I obviously failed to communicate my point.
I really do not want an argument about travel time or Teleport Circle on its own but:
I have an issue that this element of the spells; they are more expensive that an equivalent magic item, in both time and money.
So I would prefer if they competitive with magic items in time and expense because I think using the spells that way is more flavoursome.

 

[Yaarel]

One of the things I loved initially, when I first read through the 5e PHB was some of the world building in some of the spells. Things like casting Teleportation Circle for a Year and a Day to get a permanent circle, similarly for Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum and other spells. There are some that I feel are underwhelming, like Demiplane.

But I still really love the basic idea, however, in practice, they are impracticable for the PC's. If you are trying to stop the Apocalypse, taking a year out, or retiring your ninth level mage to create a permanent teleport circle, is not a particularly attractive option.

It does not also make sense when one looks at other rules for the DM, like for scroll creation and magic items. For instance:
A scroll of Teleportation Circle (per Xanathar's) is 5k gp and 4 weeks work and a Helm of Teleportation take 10 weeks and 2k gp to make. Contrast that with the year needed for the Teleportation Circle and the cost of more than 18k gp.

What this tell me is:
That the developers never thought about this holistically, and probably do not use these rules in their home games.
That either scrolls are over priced or permanent magic items are under priced.
And that it would be better to make a magic item that casts Teleport Circle once per day on touch, fix it to a pillar and pay a peasant a couple of gold pieces once per day (on completion) to touch the item to get a permanent circle than hanging about oneself and spending 18k on the cost.

So I would like a forth coming DMG to address this. I like world building magic but I think DMs would do with more guidance as to how to incorporate it in to the campaign (what level is it appropriate to allow the players access to a permanent teleportation circle, for instance).

So what do you folks think? Do you like these kind of spells? would you like to see more useful way of making that aspect of them useful to player?

I suspect, sifting thru all spells will also sort out the teleportation spells. The teleportation spells are all over the place, sometimes with a powerful one at a low level and a weak one at a high level. The designers need to sift thru every spell to ensure it is balanced with the other spells at the same slot level. 5e did a great job at removing the broken spells, but there are too many subpar spells compared to the other spells in the same slot level.

 

[jayoungr]

I still really love the basic idea, however, in practice, they are impracticable for the PC's.

That may be by design, to stop PCs from just setting up a teleport circle in every town they visit and cutting travel out of the campaign entirely.

That said, though ...

If you are trying to stop the Apocalypse, taking a year out, or retiring your ninth level mage to create a permanent teleport circle, is not a particularly attractive option.

It really depends on the campaign. You're unlikely to have a year to spare during an individual adventure, but some campaigns have downtime. My first campaign had a year between the end of the second arc and the start of the third (around level 13), and I would have been fine if the PCs had said they wanted to establish a teleport circle somewhere during that time.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

That may be by design, to stop PCs from just setting up a teleport circle in every town they visit and cutting travel out of the campaign entirely.

Is that really a problem? And before you say it depends on the campaign, one the common complaint about travel in 5e is; the advice is bad, does not contribute in campaign where resources and inventory are handwaved and subject to "I win" buttons.

That said, though ...


It really depends on the campaign. You're unlikely to have a year to spare during an individual adventure, but some campaigns have downtime. My first campaign had a year between the end of the second arc and the start of the third (around level 13), and I would have been fine if the PCs had said they wanted to establish a teleport circle somewhere during that time.

So what about players following Adventure Paths, where once the path is done they start a new campaign with fresh characters. Why can they not join in the fun?

 

[Oofta]

I've had a year or more of downtime in my campaigns. Think of how powerful instantly travelling great distances is. How expensive is a jetliner? If you're building a castle, would it not be worth the gold to have someone cast private sanctum for a year to ensure the throne room is safe?

Depends of course on the level of magic in your campaign. My campaign is fairly high magic and the spells in the book are spells appropriate for PCs. PCs are free to use them (and have) or I use them as inspiration for an "arcane craftsman" who can do similar things but only as rituals.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I've had a year or more of downtime in my campaigns. Think of how powerful instantly travelling great distances is. How expensive is a jetliner? If you're building a castle, would it not be worth the gold to have someone cast private sanctum for a year to ensure the throne room is safe?

Depends of course on the level of magic in your campaign. My campaign is fairly high magic and the spells in the book are spells appropriate for PCs. PCs are free to use them (and have) or I use them as inspiration for an "arcane craftsman" who can do similar things but only as rituals.

So what exactly are you saying here? You do not think these spell should be allowed? or that you are fine with them as is?
Would you allow my hack with the magic item and the peasant?

The Princes of the Apocalypse campaign I ran the PC went straight after the bad guys, The cleared the whole thing in about 8/9 months in game.

 

[Oofta]

So what exactly are you saying here? You do not think these spell should be allowed? or that you are fine with them as is?
Would you allow my hack with the magic item and the peasant?

The Princes of the Apocalypse campaign I ran the PC went straight after the bad guys, The cleared the whole thing in about 8/9 months in game.

I'm saying that it has happened in my campaigns that there are long breaks between adventuring so PCs could use the spells. I also have NPCs that could cast the spells. Sometimes spell info is to tell us what is possible, not what will be practical for most groups.

My personal preference is that you do not go from zero to hero in less than a year, but then again I try to avoid truly apocalyptic themes because there's no guarantee the PCs will succeed and I don't want to build a new campaign world from scratch.

 

[jayoungr]

Is that really a problem? And before you say it depends on the campaign, one the common complaint about travel in 5e is; the advice is bad, does not contribute in campaign where resources and inventory are handwaved and subject to "I win" buttons.

Let's just say it cuts out some potential story space and limits the DM's options. I know I was a little frustrated when my players took the teleport spell. Anecdote time: we were playing through Rise of Tiamat, and we had gotten to Xonthal's Tower. In this chapter, the PCs search a tower full of dragon cultists for an artefact, and the climax of the adventure is that a blue dragon--a returning antagonist that the PCs should theoretically get some satisfaction from defeating--arrives and lands on the roof. Only, my PCs never even knew the dragon was there, because as soon as they got the item, they cast teleport and left.

And before you say it depends on the campaign, one the common complaint about travel in 5e is; the advice is bad, does not contribute in campaign where resources and inventory are handwaved and subject to "I win" buttons.

Do you think, then, that going straight to "we should never travel" is the best way to fix it?

So what about players following Adventure Paths, where once the path is done they start a new campaign with fresh characters. Why can they not join in the fun?

I don't see creating your own teleport circles as a big issue in most APs because they usually have the need for travel factored in. They'll either give the PCs an opportunity to get a ship or mention that there are already teleport circles in the major locations or something similar. And if a group really feels that it's negatively impacting their fun, nothing stops the DM from giving them a magic item that would bypass the need to spend a year on casting the circle. I feel like a minority of groups would really need that in order to enjoy the adventure, though.

(Also, my first campaign started with the Tyranny of Dragons adventure path, but instead of starting over when we finished, I added another arc afterward to take the PCs up to level 20. That was when we had the year of downtime.)

 

[Umbran]

But I still really love the basic idea, however, in practice, they are impracticable for the PC's.

So what do you folks think? Do you like these kind of spells? would you like to see more useful way of making that aspect of them useful to player?

I'm okay with there being a few spells or spell effects, that are impractical for most players.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I'm saying that it has happened in my campaigns that there are long breaks between adventuring so PCs could use the spells. I also have NPCs that could cast the spells. Sometimes spell info is to tell us what is possible, not what will be practical for most groups.

My personal preference is that you do not go from zero to hero in less than a year, but then again I try to avoid truly apocalyptic themes because there's no guarantee the PCs will succeed and I don't want to build a new campaign world from scratch.

Ok, I have no problem with your campaign, it is your campaign and between you and your players. Also, I really don't care about your campaign. That is not what I am driving here.
What I am driving at is: I really like the flavour and world building included in a spell like Teleportation Circle (There are other spells with similar elements that I love also).

Now the issue: A Helm of Teleportation costs 2k gp and takes 10 weeks to make versus the 1 year and over 18k for the permanent Teleportation Circle by use of repeated casting of the spell "Teleportation Circle".
This make no sense, why would one ever bother making a permanent Teleportation Circle by the prescribed method when instead they could make a Rare magic item (Wonderous) that take 10 weeks and 2k gp? and does the same thing?

Look at the cost of scroll vs magic items (wands)