D&D General Worlds of Design: A Question of Balance

Some people think that every character class must be equally balanced with every other class, but why is that necessary? Are they competing with the other players in a co-operative game?

Some people think that every character class must be equally balanced with every other class, but why is that necessary? Are they competing with the other players in a co-operative game?
aquestionofbalance.jpg

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The Destination or the Journey?

When approaching a discussion of class balance, it's worth asking the question: is an RPG session a destination or a journey? Or to put it another way, is an RPG session "mental gymnastics" or an "adventure"? I think the latter in both cases. Consequently, shouldn't character classes be about different ways to succeed, not about "power" (or whatever it is that has to be "equal" between each character)?

The concept of asymmetry--different starting capabilities and assets on each side--is very important in some kinds of games, like historical strategy games. It's hard to sensibly reproduce history symmetrically, in which all players start at the same level of power; for an example of how this is handled in a board game, see Risk. There's good reason for this. One of the easiest ways to achieve "balance" in a game is to make it symmetric, with everyone beginning "the same."

The need for symmetric play has spilled over in video game design, with all classes being balanced against each other, even in single-player. That style of game development has influenced modern tabletop games for similar reasons: keeping all players equal smooths out the game's design. But I think something is lost in forcing symmetric design in a tabletop role-playing game.

What's Class Balance, Anyway?

The first problem is that "class balance" is a fungible metric. Presumably, all classes are "equally powerful" but what does that mean, really? If play is all about the individual, the game turns into a competition between players to see who can show off the most. For games where personal power is important, this can make sense--but I don't find it conducive to the fundamentals of teamwork Dungeons & Dragons was built on. If D&D is about cooperation, flattening out every character's power implies that they're in competition with each other.

When the game is about the success of the group as a whole, about co-operation, then there may be compensations for playing a less powerful class. In fact, some of the classes by their very nature are inherently unbalanced for a reason. Jonathan Tweet's most recent article about The Unbalanced Cleric is a perfect example. And there are opportunities for creativity in how your "less powerful" character copes with adventuring.

Variety is the Spice of Life

There's also something to be said for the variety that comes from characters of differing capabilities. It doesn't matter to me if some characters are more powerful than others, whether it's because of class, or items owned, or something else. Different characters with different power levels creates a form of interesting play.

Here's a real life analogy: The soccer striker who scores a lot versus one who makes many chances/assists and helps the team maintain possession. But in a profession where it's so hard to score, the one who scores a lot will usually be regarded as a better player ("more powerful"), or at least the one who is paid more. Yet both are equally valuable to the team. And offensive players tend to be more highly regarded than defensive players.

Magic is Not Balanced

Then there's the issue of magic. In earlier versions of D&D, magic-users did much more damage than anyone else thanks to area effect spells (I tracked this once with the aid of a program I wrote for a Radio Shack Model 100!). In a fantasy, doesn't it make sense for the magic users to be the most powerful characters? Heroes in novels, who often don't wield magic, are exceptions in many ways: without a lot of luck, they would never succeed.

Designers can avoid the "problem" of character class balance by using skill-based rules rather than rules with character classes. You can let players differentiate themselves from others by the skills they choose, without "unbalancing" them. And shouldn't each character feel different? There are certainly archetypes that character classes often follow, yet those archetypes exist for reasons other than "play balance!"

Still, won't magic use dominate? A GM/game designer can do things to mitigate the power of magic. For example. magic can be dangerous to use, and the world can be one of low rather than high magic, e.g. like Middle-earth more than like The Wheel of Time.

The Value of Combined Arms

In the only RPG I've designed--which is intended for use with a board game, so that simplicity is paramount--I use a classless system. But for a bigger game such as D&D, multiple classes help provide both differentiation and opportunities for cooperation ("combined arms"). And I enjoy devising new character classes. Whether you need a dozen or more classes is open to question, however. Nor do they need to be "equal."
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio
What I like about BX is the lack of universal system. Fate's skills, in my opinion, are less flexible than BX ability scores. I'm not sure what to do, if a player's action falls well outside any of the listed skills, like teaching a chimp sign language. Yes, I can modify the list, but that's difficult to do inside a multi-year campaign. In BX, I feel more comfortable improvising. I feel FATE Accelerated might do a better job here, though.

I'm not sure what you do in BX under that situation. You've some things, none of which really fit to try working with. Fate has other things that don't quite fit.

Again, my main problem with FATE is my inability to understand what spending a FATE point (or not spending a FATE point) a means inside the fiction. I don't get how to visualize it.

This is on a character by character basis. Fate has in its ancestry the World of Darkness games - and in cross-splat games everyone had two meta-currencies; willpower and whatever their character type had (Vampires had their blood pool, mages had Quintessence, etc.). Willpower could be spent for additional dice in your dice pool, and your magical meta-currency could be spent however it could be spent.

Fate merged and generalised the two pools as it found far more interesting when people had their back up against the wall and where they chose to act than tracking multiple pools. And it found possibly the most interesting part of the World of Darkness system was the way you used your vice to recharge your willpower pool.

This means that in Fate you can either run Fate points as a mix of willpower and endurance or you can use them to power the special sauce of your character. If, for example, you wanted to play a World of Darkness vampire your High Concept might be "200 year old Malkavian", your Trouble might be "Messy blood drinker", and two of your aspects might be Presence and Obfuscate. You'd run your Fate points as a Vampire blood pool because that's how you'd set things up. Meanwhile someone else at the same table might be playing a Mage and run their Fate point pool as Quintessence, with Paradox as their flaw and a couple of Spheres as aspects.

What Fate Points are is frequently down to how you build your character and what your character's special sauce is, and whatever it is they enable it. If you absolutely need to visualise spending them then set your character up for that.

The one time I played FATE, a player took the stunt, "I end the world." At any time, the character could simply cause the universe to implode. Another created the stunt ,"Mouse Man," which caused everyone around him to think he had become a mouse (when he hadn't). It was fun, but not what I'd call balanced.

This makes about as much sense as a critique of Fate (it hasn't been all caps for a long time) as a critique of B/X where one player was the GM's girlfriend and was loaded down with magic items from "another campaign" and playing a custom race, and a second player was playing something out of the Arduin Grimoire. I have no doubt what you describe happened - but it's seriously outside anything the guidelines suggest doing.

If I ever play FATE again, I will probably need to create a list of stunts for players to choose from.

The Fate Core SRD has some good guidance for creating stunts - and if you want an overwhelming list of examples the Spirit of the Century SRD has plenty (ignore the prerequisites in the Spirit SRD - Spirit comes from an older version of Fate where people had far more stunts).
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
We play BX using all the rules. I've never needed to ignore them, and they all provide an excellent framework. Sometimes I add things (new classes) or have to make rulings, but I don't house rule - so I wouldn't call what we do freeform RP.
Every example you've given of the flexibility and wonderfulness of the system has absolutely been you ignoring the rules, and substituting DM fiat and freestyle RP. Which is dandy, really, a lot of DMs run great freestyle games through the simple expedient of choosing a primitive/familiar, minimalist or even dysfunctional system so the players won't be tempted to challenge their rulings and improvisation, and will avoid rules-lawyering or even touching dice as much as possible.

"Bad rules make good games" is how one of the WWGS guys summed it up.

Balance - or virtually any other nominally-positive system attribute one might theoretically posit - can be downright anathema to that sort of style.

Ironically, you're ripping up Fate, but it actually does support improvisational, near-freestyle types of play. It just does so with rules that actually enable & encourage that kind of play, when you use them.
 
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Emerikol

Adventurer
I think there is a limit to how far you can go. I think editions prior to 4e were also fine as regards class balance because most gameplay was in the midlevels. When you get to 18th, you've played for five years and "retirement" is near. You may come out of retirement on occasion but you are probably starting another group. Playing nine months and being 18th level is something very new.

So I think the game has been lessened by it's obsession with balance. Should they ignore it completely. No. But fortunately we now have so many versions of D&D we can find one we like and I don't really care if others find a different game to their liking.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
I think there is a limit to how far you can go. I think editions prior to 4e were also fine as regards class balance because most gameplay was in the midlevels. When you get to 18th, you've played for five years and "retirement" is near. You may come out of retirement on occasion but you are probably starting another group. Playing nine months and being 18th level is something very new.

So I think the game has been lessened by it's obsession with balance. Should they ignore it completely. No. But fortunately we now have so many versions of D&D we can find one we like and I don't really care if others find a different game to their liking.
So, Balance is more than one thing in D&D.

There is a kind of fine-tuned combat Balance, where a level X character of class A and class B should duel each other and it is a coin flip. There is the ballpark combat Balance, where a level X character of class A and B both can contribute to the same fights and not feel that one of them is dead weight.

Then there is narrative Balance, where a level X character of class A and B both have somewhat similar ability to impact the story being told at the table using their character's abilities, and spotlight Balance, where class A or class B don't end up having the table focusing on them 90% of the time you are playing together.

Ballpark combat Balance really matters; but in almost every edition of D&D in-class "optimization" had a large enough impact that between-class Balance wasn't the biggest problem, at least at some levels of play.

Narrative and Spotlight Balance has serious issues. OD&D helped Spotlight balance of spellcasters by having non-slot turns be boring for spellcasters, and spells where compartively simpler to run (often vaguely worded and had expensive side effects, like haste and aging).

Older versions of D&D introduced mechanics for non-spellcasters to build fortresses and churches, while wizards where basically restricted to doing research into new spells (and a tower to help do that). This kept the narrative balance between the classes a bit tighter.

3e caused a bunch of problems here with its modularity and clearing of spellcasting downsides. The ability to build a fortress and lead NPCs remained, but now it was an (optional) feat, which a wizard could grab as much as a fighter could. The game was designed around assuming you played AD&D 2e characters and then used these new rules; then players didn't play AD&D 2e with them.

4e removed too much narrative power from players (mainly aimed at spellcasters), which is a sucky form of "balance": everyone is poor so nobody is poor.

5e returned to 3e, but not as bad. Basically, all of the stuff in AD&D and BECMI for "name level" characters is missing as a rival to the spellcasters level 5+ spells. (I'm not saying the mechanics in AD&D/BECMI for that was good; but at least it provided mechanical support for narrative control by non-spellcasters).

I call that 5e's "back 10 problem". It also holds in the combat mechanics - the last 10 levels of 5e feel significantly less impressive than the first 5 do for every class except full spellcasters, whose new spells provide some excitement. Most cool abilities you gain are defensive in nature.

...

So, I'd want classes to:

A) Ballpark combat balance. You contribute to combats your peers find challenging, and vice versa.

B) Spotlight balance. Impact per second of table top time. Time spent on your turn balance.

C) Narrative balance. Mechanics that let you intract with the narrative of the game beyond "kill stuff". Many mid/high level spells are examples of such narratives, as are (some) background abilities. Hallow, Wards, Teleport, Wish, Simulacrum, Clone, Move Earth, Zone of Truth, Wall of Stone, Magnificent Mansion, True Polymorph, etc.

...

(A) is a ballpark request. Enough competence should be baked into a class so that a level 10 PC isn't massively overshadowed by a different level 10 PC of the same or different class.

To me, for (B), this means that insanely complex spells that have a huge impact? They should be extremely use-restricted (not every combat) and/or require more than 1 "turn" in combat to execute. Maybe fighters or rogues can do some setup and takedown mechanics over multiple turns as well. The attention attached to these abilities should be balanced against the impact of the mechanics as well (so, tracking a bunch of do-nothing 'marks' is bad; but if the 'mark' means that the character will get 3x damage next turn on it, that is worth tracking).

As for (C), I could see moving back to the OD&D style "stronghold" system somehow. You could even make it modular; simply have full spellcasters not get points that are used here.

Like, non-caster PCs get 1 dominion point at level 1, 2 at level 2, 3 at level 3, etc. Half-casters might get 2 at level 2, 4 at level 4, 6 at level 6, etc (only on even levels). Full casters get zilch.

And Dominion points can be used to turn hirelings into followers, and followers into vassals, and those vassals can rule your castles or thieves guilds or churches you build or buy or conquer. Or the followers can be set loose as contacts.

Now, the mere mortals have a web of NPCs mechanically loyal to them. Which can have a huge narrative impact. That would balance the spellcasters ability to alter reality to a certain extent...
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think there is a limit to how far you can go. I think editions prior to 4e were also fine as regards class balance because most gameplay was in the midlevels. When you get to 18th, you've played for five years and "retirement" is near. You may come out of retirement on occasion but you are probably starting another group. Playing nine months and being 18th level is something very new.
None of that really has anything to do with "balance," so I'm not really sure what point you're making. Balance issues with 3e start as early as level 6 or 7 (hence the proliferation of "E6" rules, which cap things out at/just before the point where stuff begins to go wonky.) We now have not just the original 3e designers admitting it was full of balance problems, but also the continuing designers from Paizo, who made a pretty heartfelt and specific argument for why the 3e base (upon which PF1e was built) was too broken, too unbalanced, to support any further development at a sustainable and productive rate.

So I think the game has been lessened by it's obsession with balance.
What does "obsession with balance" even mean? I find this is often a buzzword-y talking point without much weight to it.

Should they ignore it completely. No. But fortunately we now have so many versions of D&D we can find one we like and I don't really care if others find a different game to their liking.
Speaking from personal experience: It can be much, much, much harder to find a game one likes than you are giving credit for. As in, about three-four years ago, I went looking for games catering to my interests. I spent more than a year looking, slowly but surely loosening my standards until it was "any game, even 5e, that might vaguely resemble what I'm hoping to get." Not one game lasted more than about five weeks--and even that was a bit of an outlier.

"You go play YOUR game, while WotC caters to me personally" is very easy to say, but doesn't have a great track record IME.
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
So, Balance is more than one thing in D&D.

There is a kind of fine-tuned combat Balance, where a level X character of class A and class B should duel each other and it is a coin flip. There is the ballpark combat Balance, where a level X character of class A and B both can contribute to the same fights and not feel that one of them is dead weight.

Then there is narrative Balance, where a level X character of class A and B both have somewhat similar ability to impact the story being told at the table using their character's abilities, and spotlight Balance, where class A or class B don't end up having the table focusing on them 90% of the time you are playing together.

Ballpark combat Balance really matters; but in almost every edition of D&D in-class "optimization" had a large enough impact that between-class Balance wasn't the biggest problem, at least at some levels of play.

Narrative and Spotlight Balance has serious issues. OD&D helped Spotlight balance of spellcasters by having non-slot turns be boring for spellcasters, and spells where compartively simpler to run (often vaguely worded and had expensive side effects, like haste and aging).

Older versions of D&D introduced mechanics for non-spellcasters to build fortresses and churches, while wizards where basically restricted to doing research into new spells (and a tower to help do that). This kept the narrative balance between the classes a bit tighter.

3e caused a bunch of problems here with its modularity and clearing of spellcasting downsides. The ability to build a fortress and lead NPCs remained, but now it was an (optional) feat, which a wizard could grab as much as a fighter could. The game was designed around assuming you played AD&D 2e characters and then used these new rules; then players didn't play AD&D 2e with them.

4e removed too much narrative power from players (mainly aimed at spellcasters), which is a sucky form of "balance": everyone is poor so nobody is poor.

5e returned to 3e, but not as bad. Basically, all of the stuff in AD&D and BECMI for "name level" characters is missing as a rival to the spellcasters level 5+ spells. (I'm not saying the mechanics in AD&D/BECMI for that was good; but at least it provided mechanical support for narrative control by non-spellcasters).

I call that 5e's "back 10 problem". It also holds in the combat mechanics - the last 10 levels of 5e feel significantly less impressive than the first 5 do for every class except full spellcasters, whose new spells provide some excitement. Most cool abilities you gain are defensive in nature.

...

So, I'd want classes to:

A) Ballpark combat balance. You contribute to combats your peers find challenging, and vice versa.

B) Spotlight balance. Impact per second of table top time. Time spent on your turn balance.

C) Narrative balance. Mechanics that let you intract with the narrative of the game beyond "kill stuff". Many mid/high level spells are examples of such narratives, as are (some) background abilities. Hallow, Wards, Teleport, Wish, Simulacrum, Clone, Move Earth, Zone of Truth, Wall of Stone, Magnificent Mansion, True Polymorph, etc.

...

(A) is a ballpark request. Enough competence should be baked into a class so that a level 10 PC isn't massively overshadowed by a different level 10 PC of the same or different class.

To me, for (B), this means that insanely complex spells that have a huge impact? They should be extremely use-restricted (not every combat) and/or require more than 1 "turn" in combat to execute. Maybe fighters or rogues can do some setup and takedown mechanics over multiple turns as well. The attention attached to these abilities should be balanced against the impact of the mechanics as well (so, tracking a bunch of do-nothing 'marks' is bad; but if the 'mark' means that the character will get 3x damage next turn on it, that is worth tracking).

As for (C), I could see moving back to the OD&D style "stronghold" system somehow. You could even make it modular; simply have full spellcasters not get points that are used here.

Like, non-caster PCs get 1 dominion point at level 1, 2 at level 2, 3 at level 3, etc. Half-casters might get 2 at level 2, 4 at level 4, 6 at level 6, etc (only on even levels). Full casters get zilch.

And Dominion points can be used to turn hirelings into followers, and followers into vassals, and those vassals can rule your castles or thieves guilds or churches you build or buy or conquer. Or the followers can be set loose as contacts.

Now, the mere mortals have a web of NPCs mechanically loyal to them. Which can have a huge narrative impact. That would balance the spellcasters ability to alter reality to a certain extent...
That's a lot of thought to put into a 4-year-old necro. Thanks for sharing, though!
 

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