Worlds of Design: Leveling vs. Training

We previously covered why training systems were abandoned in D&D. Here's what replaced it.

We previously covered why training systems were abandoned in D&D. Here's what replaced it.

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.

“For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them.” ― Aristotle

Congratulations on Advancing, Pay Up!​

I’ve always thought one of the worst mistakes in AD&D (not repeated in later editions) was the requirement that when you reach enough experience points to rise in level you have to pay somebody an exorbitant sum to “train” reach that new level. I suppose these rules were an attempt to take excess money out of the game, but if applied as written it turned adventurers into mere money grubbers (much worse than treasure-hunters) in order to acquire enough money for training. I want a game of heroes, not money-grubbers, and I doubt that Gary Gygax wanted adventurers to be money-grubbers when he wrote AD&D.

As I discussed in the previous article, it was also wrong-headed because if you did the things that enabled you to survive and prosper then why would you need somebody to train you? You don't teach or even train people in order to somehow mysteriously activate what they already know/know how to do. You teach them in order to provide a substitute for real-world experience (If you're a good teacher, that is) People learn best from experience, and by talking with other practitioners in order to learn from them, and as you get more experience, you improve.

And then there's the chicken and egg question: where did the original trainer come from? There must be a way to learn these things successfully without being trained by someone else.

Fundamentally, we have two competing systems: a level-based system that uses the word “experience” to reflect characters’ development through adventuring, and a more monetary system that requires payment to advance.

The Devolution of Training in D&D​

Subsequent editions of Dungeons & Dragons gradually phased this requirement out, for good reason. I suspect the training rule was dropped in later editions because the designers realized it turns the most noble adventurers (including monks and paladins) into mercenaries, especially when experience points are given for gold. I didn’t need a rule to extract cash from adventurers. I do not give away big treasures, as treasure does not provide experience points in my games.

In AD&D 2nd Edition, training was relegated to an optional rule:
Characters must pay a tutor around 100 gp per level per week, with the duration based on the instructor's Wisdom score. The character must then pass a Wisdom or Intelligence check to level up, retrying each week until successful. The tutor must be a character of the same class and of higher level.
In D&D 3rd Edition, it was assumed characters practiced their skills during downtime, with an optional rule of working with an instructor at 50 gp per week. Skills took one week per skill rank and feats took two weeks. Class abilities and spells also required expenditure of time and money. By 4th Edition, training was removed entirely (with a reference to proficiency replacing training).

Why it Went Away​

There’s nothing inherently wrong with leveling up rules. D&D was intended to be relatively simple. Leveling is meant to be an abstraction in which characters are finally getting a tangible in-game benefit from their experiences that they would have achieved gradually in a real world.

This sudden jump up a level is similar to how hit points are treated in D&D. You don't lose capability as you accumulate damage, but when you get to zero hit points, you’re suddenly incapacitated. Later systems have strayed from the simple hit point approach to cause more nuanced damage, so that characters suffer different penalties than just hit points over time.

This waning effectiveness has its roots in wargames with unit “steps” (including many block games). Damaged units decrease capabilities in discrete increments, because that’s the best we can do with non-computer games. But some designers think that’s better than a unit being fully capable until suddenly it’s dead, as was true in all the older Avalon Hill games such as Stalingrad and Afrika Korps.

More modern games reject this idea of leveling entirely, preferring instead to allow characters to focus on different skills from a pool and increase those as they see fit. It requires considerably more bookkeeping, which is why you see this style of advancement more often in computer role-playing games. Computers make it much easier to keep track of the minute details—and of percentages.

Stepped or Nuanced?​

If we were willing to accept the additional record-keeping and complexity, we could have gradual decreases in abilities with injuries sustained for RPG characters. Similarly, we could have characters increase in one skill or feat before they fully level up. And in some RPG rulesets that is the case, but not in intended-to-be-simple D&D.

D&D codified technical skill with the Proficiency Bonus in 5th Edition, a modifier that is uniformly applied to many aspects of a character’s capabilities. While not a one-to-one equivalent of a character’s level, the Proficiency Bonus replaces much of the fiddly bits of how good a character is at combat, or spellcasting, or avoiding damage by tying it all to one number.

Conversely, there are some rules that restore degrees of advancement or failure in between levels. 5th Edition reserves training for learning new languages or tool proficiencies independent of levels (250 days at a cost of 1 gp per day). Optional rules added further complications and costs in Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

On the damage side, 5E has exhaustion levels, which provide a separate track of penalties from hit point loss alone (and can still result in character death!). Speaking of death, there are now death saves, with three fails accumulating in the death of a character.

Despite the relatively simple approach D&D has to success and failure, it’s clear players crave more nuance in how their characters develop or die. We see this in more modern RPGs and in D&D’s gradual removal of training as a requirement for advancement.

Your Turn: What subsystems do you use for advancement or failure in your games?
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
@Lanefan's method doesn't make any sense from a realism standpoints. People get better through practice and doing. The fighter will learn from mistakes and improve in the field. He will see that if he takes move #2 and combines it with move #34 and gives it a zing, it becomes harder to block(+1 to hit for leveling up). And so on. If you don't get better or learn new things at all while in the field, but only after you get back to the classroom, it just doesn't make sense.
🤷‍♀️ It’s D&D. Suspension of disbelief is part of what you sign up for. It all makes as much or as little sense as you’re willing to accept.
 

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Voadam

Legend
"They will never retain wealth, keeping only sufficient treasures to support themselves in a modest manner, pay henchmen, men-at-arms, and servitors, and to construct or maintain a small castle."

Training costs would be part of the modest support.
modest support for themself and castle construction are very different ends of the gp scale. :)

Thousands of gold pieces each level for continuing education seems to stretch a definition of modest self support.
 

Voadam

Legend
They don't have to pay for training at any level if they do well enough with the rating.
Not quite, the ratings determine whether they need to spend between 1 and 4 weeks of training at a cost of 1,500 gp per week per current level. The best they can do for consistently excellent class performance across each adventure across the entire level is still 1 week of training.

DMG page 86:

Experience points are merely an indicator of the character’s progress towards greater proficiency in his or her chosen profession. UPWARD PROGRESS IS NEVER AUTOMATIC. Just because Nell Nimblefingers, Rogue of the Thieves’ Guild has managed to acquire 1,251 experience points does NOT mean that she suddenly becomes Nell Nimblefingers the Footpad. The gaining of sufficient experience points is necessary to indicate that a character is eligible to gain a level of experience, but the actual award is a matter for you, the DM, to decide.
Consider the natural functions of each class of character. Consider also the professed alignment of each character. Briefly assess the performance of each character after an adventure. Did he or she perform basically in the character of his or her class? Were his or her actions in keeping with his or her professed alignment? Mentally classify the overall performance as:
E — Excellent, few deviations from norm = 1
S — Superior, deviations minimal but noted = 2
F — Fair performance, more norm than deviations = 3
P — Poor showing with aberrant behavior = 4
Clerics who refuse to help and heal or do not remain faithful to their deity, fighters who hang back from combat or attempt to steal, or fail to boldly lead, magic-users who seek to engage in melee or ignore magic items they could employ in crucial situations, thieves who boldly engage in frontal attacks or refrain from acquisition of an extra bit of treasure when the opportunity presents itself, “cautious” characters who do not pull their own weight — these are all clear examples of a POOR rating.
Award experience points normally. When each character is given his or her total, also give them an alphabetic rating — E, S, F, or P. When a character’s total experience points indicate eligibility for an advancement in level, use the alphabetic assessment to assign equal weight to the behavior of the character during each separate adventure — regardless of how many or how few experience points were gained in each. The resulting total is then divided by the number of entries (adventures) to come up with some number from 1 to 4. This number indicates the number of WEEKS the character must spend in study and/or training before he or she actually gains the benefits of the new level. Be certain that all decimals are retained, as each .145 equals a game day.
Not only must game time be spent by the character desiring advancement, but treasure will have to be spent as well. The amount of gold pieces, or the equivalent in value in gems, jewelry, magic items, etc., is found by using the following simple formula:
LEVEL OF THE TRAINEE CHARACTER × 1,500 = WEEKLY COST DURING STUDY/TRAINING.
The level of the aspiring character should be computed at current (not to be gained) level.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
🤷‍♀️ It’s D&D. Suspension of disbelief is part of what you sign up for. It all makes as much or as little sense as you’re willing to accept.
I prefer the suspension of disbelief that happens when you get better over the level, but only suddenly get your abilities at the end. That stretches things less for me than not improving at all by adventuring.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
modest support for themself and castle construction are very different ends of the gp scale. :)
Heh. Yeah. Things are inconsistent a lot in 1e.

I feel like they can start saving for the castle at or near name level when they can actually build one. So 8th or 9th level. Before that they would need to give their excess money away.
Thousands of gold pieces each level for continuing education seems to stretch a definition of modest self support.
Improvement by one level is modest. The cost is high, but how much support you get is modest. Sort of like the castle.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Not quite, the ratings determine whether they need to spend between 1 and 4 weeks of training at a cost of 1,500 gp per week per current level. The best they can do for consistently excellent class performance across each adventure across the entire level is still 1 week of training.

DMG page 86:

Experience points are merely an indicator of the character’s progress towards greater proficiency in his or her chosen profession. UPWARD PROGRESS IS NEVER AUTOMATIC. Just because Nell Nimblefingers, Rogue of the Thieves’ Guild has managed to acquire 1,251 experience points does NOT mean that she suddenly becomes Nell Nimblefingers the Footpad. The gaining of sufficient experience points is necessary to indicate that a character is eligible to gain a level of experience, but the actual award is a matter for you, the DM, to decide.
Consider the natural functions of each class of character. Consider also the professed alignment of each character. Briefly assess the performance of each character after an adventure. Did he or she perform basically in the character of his or her class? Were his or her actions in keeping with his or her professed alignment? Mentally classify the overall performance as:
E — Excellent, few deviations from norm = 1
S — Superior, deviations minimal but noted = 2
F — Fair performance, more norm than deviations = 3
P — Poor showing with aberrant behavior = 4
Clerics who refuse to help and heal or do not remain faithful to their deity, fighters who hang back from combat or attempt to steal, or fail to boldly lead, magic-users who seek to engage in melee or ignore magic items they could employ in crucial situations, thieves who boldly engage in frontal attacks or refrain from acquisition of an extra bit of treasure when the opportunity presents itself, “cautious” characters who do not pull their own weight — these are all clear examples of a POOR rating.
Award experience points normally. When each character is given his or her total, also give them an alphabetic rating — E, S, F, or P. When a character’s total experience points indicate eligibility for an advancement in level, use the alphabetic assessment to assign equal weight to the behavior of the character during each separate adventure — regardless of how many or how few experience points were gained in each. The resulting total is then divided by the number of entries (adventures) to come up with some number from 1 to 4. This number indicates the number of WEEKS the character must spend in study and/or training before he or she actually gains the benefits of the new level. Be certain that all decimals are retained, as each .145 equals a game day.
Not only must game time be spent by the character desiring advancement, but treasure will have to be spent as well. The amount of gold pieces, or the equivalent in value in gems, jewelry, magic items, etc., is found by using the following simple formula:
LEVEL OF THE TRAINEE CHARACTER × 1,500 = WEEKLY COST DURING STUDY/TRAINING.
The level of the aspiring character should be computed at current (not to be gained) level.
Alright. For some reason self-training costs more, even though you aren't actually paying for a tutor.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
That's not really how Gygax described it, though. He described XP as gaining progress towards greater proficiency, so as you get experience you are getting learning to do better. This is further backed up by the note on page 85 of the 1e DMG where Gygax says that getting experience would towards improvement would be more realistic if... and then describes a bunch of boring to play stuff. So he's definitely saying that the character is getting better as he gains XP.
Thing is, better at what? IMO it's that the character is getting better at the things in which it was just trained.
The training was just some arbitrary cost tacked on. You didn't even need to train or pay for training if you performed in a superior or excellent manner during the level.
I thought there was still a minimum cost, at about 1/4 of the maximum. EDIT: @Voadam posted the specifics.
Did you alter the 1e XP tables so that PCs would level at the same rate?
As in, the same rate as they would have with xp-for-gp, or at the same rate as each other?

I've altered the tables, yes, but not nearly enough to make up for xp-for-gp; and this is very intentional: I want a slower advance rate.

The tables still vary by class, if that's what you were asking.
The vast amounts of XP needed to level in 1e were there because you were also expected to get vast amounts of gold to help you level up. If you relied only on XP from killing things and then kept the same tables, you were horribly gimping the players. Our DM didn't alter the tables and got rid of gold for XP, which is one of the prime reasons we never made it past 7th level.
And at the same time, if your DM didn't change the treasure in the modules, you were all stinkin' rich! :)

How long were those campaigns? We find in our system 7th level* takes about 3-4 years after which advancement becomes very (!) slow for a series of reasons:
--- characters (and entire parties!) cycling in and out
--- player turnover, sometimes
--- the natural J-curve in the advancement tables
--- level loss effects
--- mini-reboots within the same campaign, where a group of henches or lower-level PCs form their own party and take to the field

And this is a Good Thing, in that I want the overall campaign to go on for many more than 3-4 years yet both IMO and IME the system kinda starts wobbling around 9th-10th level and seriously falling apart around 12th-13th. Thus, if there's something that acts as an anchor or brake on advancement, I'm all for it. :)

* - overall party average; individual characters might be faster.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
@Lanefan's method doesn't make any sense from a realism standpoints.
Then why have I so often seen it - the classroom-to-field training method - in use in real life in some widely-disparate situations:

--- sales training
--- sailing instruction
--- any number of lab courses in school/college
--- driver training
People get better through practice and doing.
Only after they've been trained on what to do.
The fighter will learn from mistakes and improve in the field. He will see that if he takes move #2 and combines it with move #34 and gives it a zing, it becomes harder to block(+1 to hit for leveling up).
Exactly - and while move #2 is old hat, during his last training is when he learned move #34 for the first time and realized that combo could work.
And so on. If you don't get better or learn new things at all while in the field, but only after you get back to the classroom, it just doesn't make sense.
You're getting it backwards!

You learn it in the classrom first! The field time is when you practice what you just learned. And sure, you could trial-and-error learn some stuff while in the field (particularly true for non-casters), but when you get back to train is when you can take that trial-and-error and make something useful of it...and divest yourself of any bad habits you invented along the way. :)
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Thing is, better at what? IMO it's that the character is getting better at the things in which it was just trained.
Sure. Better at fightering which you just trained = gain a level. Better at wizarding in which you just trained = gain a level. They're getting better at what they do by adventuring, not by going and sitting in class.
I thought there was still a minimum cost, at about 1/4 of the maximum.
Yeah. That was my bad.
I 've altered the tables, yes, but not nearly enough to make up for xp-for-gp; and this is very intentional: I want a slower advance rate.
That's cool. Without modification it wasn't slower. It was downright glacial. :)
How long were those campaigns? We find in our system 7th level* takes about 3-4 years after which advancement becomes very (!) slow for a series of reasons:
--- characters (and entire parties!) cycling in and out
--- player turnover, sometimes
--- the natural J-curve in the advancement tables
--- level loss effects
--- mini-reboots within the same campaign, where a group of henches or lower-level PCs form their own party and take to the field
The campaign was ongoing much like yours. We had different groups, PC deaths, no real player turnover since we were all junior high and high school buddies. We played that way from 1984 until about 1991 or 1992. Then life took over.
 

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