Worst D&D adventure of all time?

[Hussar]

While a literal interpretation might have an endless horde of draconians swarm the hills, I ran it more military like with main columns & a scorched earth on the periphery. You could beat a couple of groups, so long as you weren't traipsing into the main body, & reach the ruined lands beyond.

And that's a great idea. However, that's NOT the idea in the module. Like has been said before, a good DM can make all the difference. However, how you or I actually run the adventure is irrelavent to whether or not the module(s) are good or not. The module, as written, had endless hordes of draconians swarming the hills that will eventually grind the party to dust if they do not toe the line.

And that's the whole point in a nutshell. The text as written did not allow the party to deviate from the scripted plot. If they (intentionally or not) killed off particular NPC's, those NPC's would spring back to life. Why? Because particular NPC's were integral to the PLOT. Not integral to the party, or even important to the party necessarily, but, because the script required certain individuals to be in certain places at certain times, there was very little the players could do to change that story.

Granted, thinking about it now, I think we actually gave up around DL7. Whichever the one was with the ice boats. My players just got so fed up with being led around by the nose that they just revolted. And, to be fair, I can't blame them.

So, I believe we have reached what is colloquially known as an imp arse. I'm not going to convince you that you are wrong and there's nothing you can say that's really going to change my mind on this. We'll leave it up to different experiences and call it a day shall we?

 

[Davelozzi]

My nomination is N5, Under Illefarn...
So, would you consider putting a Helm of Brilliance with most of the gems still working in an intro mod? No? How about two of them? But wait, the second one is also a Helm of Telepathy, Stone of Controlling Earth Elementals, Ring of Protection +3 AND a Periapt of Proof against Poison in addition to being a Helm of Brilliance all rolled into one! Never buy another magic item ever!

Well, I really like Under Illefarn, but for me it's a given that any published module needs to have most of it's magic items cut out by the DM before hand.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Lets.

Although I'm not 'really' defending the indefensible, as mentioned there were railroad elements, but rather this idea where players don't play the module. E.g. the dm has the RttToEE & the pcs go anywhere but. Of course this leads us to players & dm actually talking to each other to find out what they want to play. Some comments in this thread seem to imply that this discussion never happened, which is strange when you think about it... :\

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Granted, thinking about it now, I think we actually gave up around DL7. Whichever the one was with the ice boats. My players just got so fed up with being led around by the nose that they just revolted. And, to be fair, I can't blame them.

Heh, I remember the Rose Knight (mk II, & yes that player had already killed Derek Crownguard & was working his way through the ranks {I eventually ruled his options down to sword & then crown knights}) character facing off against the white dragon that attacks when on those ships. He stood there taking blast after blast waiting for the dragon to land...

 

[Remathilis]

I think the problem IS ALSO SCOPE.

If you don't go into the Hill Giant Steading, you don't get treasure*.

If you don't find the Apocalypse Stone, the world goes bye-bye.

The first is not the end of the world, its a plot. The second is an epic quest with the fate of millions resting on you.

Sounds like some don't like the latter as a campaign option. thats fine, different goats for different folks. However, its pretty low to critize a module/campaign/DM as a railroad fest because it follows a close plotline with not alot of deviation. By that definition, Shackled City is a Railroad.

* = Actually, its worse. Re-read the intro flavor text; you are sent there by village elders ON PAIN OF DEATH to find out what going on. Nice guys eh?

 

[Dalprin]

The worse official adventure I've ever DM or played? Got to be Gargoyles. I bought it because I love Greyhawk and thought it would be a fun revival for my players. It was sealed in plastic wrap so I could only judge the module by the cover art and a vague blurb on the back. Looked like cool horror and featured one of my favorite creatures. What it turned out to be was a nonsensical BAD module that turned me off of Greyhawk for years. It is the only module I threw away before playing it.

 

[Cam Banks]

So, I believe we have reached what is colloquially known as an imp arse. I'm not going to convince you that you are wrong and there's nothing you can say that's really going to change my mind on this. We'll leave it up to different experiences and call it a day shall we?

I think it's mainly an impasse because you A) haven't read the adventures recently, apparently and B) haven't really been reading what folks have said in response to your posts.

We agree on elements of the modules, especially the earlier ones, that dictate certain courses of action on the part of the players in order to achieve certain story goals.

That's all we agree on, I think, because at that point you assume the entire series is fixed, the heroes have no choices, the heroes will automatically die if they decide to act independently of the adventure, and the bad guys always come back and nothing ever works. This makes it impossible to discuss this with you.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Hussar]

Well, the reason I think that the players have no choices is things like having your main NPC virtually indestructable. No matter what you do to Berem, he's there at the end. This is only one example. It's not just the bad guys that come back. It's bloody near everyone. Drop Fizban off the mountain, poof, he's waiting for you at the bottom (convenient that the NPC's are indistructable, immortal or GODS.)

You accuse me of not reading the modules recently. That I'll cop to no problem. And, it's quite possible that maybe it's my memories that are cloudy. But, then you accuse me of not listening. Well, I did listen. I just happen to not agree. When all of the major NPC's CANNOT be killed before a specific time, that's a pretty bloody LARGE plot railroad. That means that the story is more important than the decisions that the players make.

I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand. I used the waves of draconians as an example, not as the ONLY example. Modules which dictate the path you travel, who you travel with, who can and cannot be killed are, IMNSHO, railroads. This is why I put the DL modules as some of the worst modules out there.

Just on a side note, I can live with some railroading. That's not a problem most of the time. Telling the players that they have to go somewhere and do something is ok. Telling the players that they have to go somewhere, do something, only go this particular way, with these particular people, and the results of their actions become meaningless unless they fit with the story, is not.

 

[jsewell]

Pool of Radiance was the first, but it was just lackluster (the maps were exactly the computer game type).

-Hee Hee, I bought the AD&D version for just that reason, but you're right the adventure did suck (somehow I've wound up with the 3E version....).
-I have to disagree about Feast of Goblyns. Still my favorite adventure!
-No one's nominated Vecna Lives! yet? TPK of the Circle of Eight, then the PCs are supposed to figure out what went wrong?
-One more, though I hate to nominate it, The Lost Tomb of Kruk-Ma-Kali for Kingdoms of Kalamar. Why? Well, the party spends weeks (maybe months, if you're a nasty DM) to find out the general area for Tomb. But, if they don't befriend the Red Dragon of the area, there is little chance they'll find the actual tomb (it's hidden within a rock wall with an entrance of about two-and-a-half feet). Of course, this is assuming the party is still alive. In the valley for the tomb lies these monsters: the aforementioned Red Dragon (who has a nasty attitude); three tribes of Hobgoblins, one is led by an insane vampire; a death knight; a tribe of advanced trolls; several advanced mummies; stone golems; a ghost; a Nightstalker; and (drum roll, please) the Tarrasque (well, an aquatic version). Recommended party size and level? Four to six PCs of 8th level. This is all before the tomb itself, which is very nasty (in one room if you look up, you get whisked away to Hell). So, somehow, the party survives, and finds the treasure... It's a powerful magic sword that just happens to be possessed by a Hobgoblin Psion (Kruk-Ma-Kali) who has a King Arthur complex (the Once and Future King....). That said, it's worth owning for source material (all Kalamar adventures are about half background/area statistics - and they all have wretched "adventure hooks").
-I also second the Heart of Nightfang Spire, as well as the other adventure in that series whose name I cannot recall, the one with the bat-people.... Ugh!

 

[Cam Banks]

You accuse me of not reading the modules recently. That I'll cop to no problem. And, it's quite possible that maybe it's my memories that are cloudy. But, then you accuse me of not listening. Well, I did listen. I just happen to not agree. When all of the major NPC's CANNOT be killed before a specific time, that's a pretty bloody LARGE plot railroad. That means that the story is more important than the decisions that the players make.

Verminaard appears in DL2. The heroes are tasked with undoing/preventing/interrupting his plans, and this is a challenge they're easily up to doing. In the books, this is even where he dies - he's killed at Pax Tharkas (although like many cinematic villains, you never see his body). In DL3, Verminaard doesn't have much to do with the PCs other than annoy them and keep Elistan busy, so he's of little consequence. In DL4, the heroes finally get to face off with him and his cronies and kill him off.

Compare this to the changeling NPC who keeps showing up in the Eberron modules. He's a fake vampire or something, but he's a recurring villain. He's Eberron's Verminaard, essentially. The heroes have other things to do - they're not ready to kill him off, so he's a recurring character until they do.

Berem and Fizban aren't bad guys or villains. Neither is actually essential to the series other than as potential climactic characters. In fact, it's possible Fizban isn't Paladine, just a crazy wizard. It's also possible Berem is just a red herring as well. They're recurring NPCs who lend some degree of continuity to the story but they're not exactly targets for the PC's wrath.

There are some other recurring villains - notably, the Dragon Highlords, but then apart from Kitiara they don't have terribly much to do with the PCs other than loom on the horizon. There are always other NPCs and villains to worry about, challenges to overcome, and evil plots to derail. The heroes get to take out bad guys fairly often - they get rid of Feal-Thas in DL6, various opponents and ogres and bad guys in DL7, a number of NPC lieutenants and generals and spooks in DL8, and in DL9 they get to infilitrate Sanction and take out all kinds of major NPCs such as Dracart and Wyrrlish.

In DL10, they get rid of Cyan Bloodbane (or at least stop his nightmare). In DL12, they foil a number of villains from Balifor all the way to sunken Istar. In DL13, there's admittedly not a lot of major NPCs to fight, but there are plenty of other things to do (and the ending of the adventure to determine). And in DL14, all bets are off.

Honestly, the mere fact that the adventures were designed around the idea of the heroes doing things other than just fighting the boss monster at the end of the dungeon (which they do in DL1 to kick things off) was pretty radical. Each module becomes episodic, has specific challenges, and multiple routes or means of achieving those (especially after DL4 is done with). Like Shackled City or other modern adventure series, there's a plot that governs a lot of the events and background, but it doesn't shoehorn the heroes any more than you'd expect it to.

Trust me, when these things get rewritten and revised, a lot will be changed in order to make things more customizable and adaptable to the needs of an individual group of players, but the structure will likely remain focused on the epic story with the player characters as the central actors. To change that would make no sense whatsoever.

Cheers,
Cam