WotBS (conversion to Pathfinder) OOC

[Dragonwriter]

AoO aren't my major concern it is being able to use this "spell-like" abilty will paraylzed(or tied up etc.) but you can't cast spells while paraylzed(tied up etc.). So that seems "unspell-like".

So point two:

Without components of any kind you give the oppurtinity to cast while impaired. I say that is "inspell-like", and shouldn't be allowed.

And that they can be countered but how does someone know a spell is being cast. You say "I use my SLA to summon a monster to put a dire wolf behind the enemy." and I say " Your ablity is countered by one of the inquisitors." We all know the next thing will be "How did he know I was casting anything?" (Although the Bestiary says they can't be countered but the Core book says they can.)

That is what I really wish to address and if we simply say, SLA's can't be countered then they become a little more powerful than their intention. I know they book states that the have no components but it also says that they are like spells and spells do have at least a verbal component.

If we even add just that (V component) we give reason for counterspelling, and the inability to use it if you are incapacited and can't speak.

Sure spell like abilites have been around a while and never "fixed". They work to the players benefits when used or to the DM's when used agianst players, balanced ok, sure. But they are still sitting their contradicting themselves.

A simple suggestion:
For the "cast while impaired," I still need Line of Sight and Line of Effect. If I can't see, I don't know where to put my summoned creature. I could drop them off a cliff, for all I know.

As for the "cannot counterspell," let it be! Please, HM. My class already got a nerf (so I can only have Summon Monster OR Eidolon active, not both), I don't need another one! We've just barely begun playing. The bad guys will still be able to Dispel the effects I create, but they just can't use the Counterspell options.

Let's just play it as the rules say and if it becomes a problem, then we talk about taking the power down. Can we just do that, rather than nerfing ONE character, out of the whole group?

So point three:

Do we allow counterspelling of SLAs or not?

If they can than they will need some component to allow for how the counterer knew a spell was being cast. If they can't be then are they really "spell-like".

I say, most vehemently, No. The effects can be dispelled, but just them being able to Counterspell one of my major class features is not right. Yeah, they can do that to Wizards, Clerics, etc. but those are, firstly spells and secondly, those classes have a lot more uses/day than any Summoner.

So, please, let's just play it by what the PFSRD AND 3.5 SRD say, as they are/were kept up-to-date with the rules that came out. House-rule it if it becomes overpowered, but not before. And see if the others have a problem with it. At the moment, only you and I are discussing it, when it does affect the entire play dynamic and the party. WD chimed in, too, but we've got three more members.

I say please leave my class features alone; they've already been smacked down once as it is. And that was without a major alteration to the basic rules.

 

[Songdragon]

I am with Dragonwriter... I am fine with keeping things as per the rules with SLAs. I never found such things over powering and should it become so, then we might consider discussing it then.

 

[Fangor the Fierce]

I agree with the Twin Dragons. If it becomes a problem, you also have the ability to use the same powers against them with foes. I have not seen it become imbalanced, but I could be wrong. I would agree that we should leave it as is, and should it become unbalanced, then we revisit.

Just my two coppers..

 

[HolyMan]

Ok we shall try it as is for that is the consensus but we should keep an eye out for imbalance. And like I said if a caster is tied up and gagged etc and still lightning bolts the bad guys I don't think I will like that to much.

Let's see what else did I need to address, oh nerfed ability. You do know DW that when you take the Summon Monster spell you will be allowed to have your SLA or eidolon and the monsters you summon via the spell at the same time. It's only the SLA monsters and eidolon that don't mix.

So if you say casted Summon Monster III(SLA) and Summon Monster III from your spells you could have up to 2d4+2 (4-10) Celestial Riding Dogs possible with Augment Summoning stats to boot.

Oh that's what I wanted to say, from the IC, it isn't a regular dog you summon it says riding dog in the list. They have trip and also a 6 CHA so no extra smite damage?!? Is that correct or do celestial creatures get a minimum of one for that? Don't see anything on that. Doesn't matter these guys aren't "evil" but wanted to know for later.

Note: Summon Monster VI(SLA) and spell = possible 2d4+2 (4-10) Celestial Dire Wolves !?! ummm.... yikes )

Nerfed my a...

HM

 

[Walking Dad]

Notes:

A summoner never learns SM 3. He learns SM 4 as 3rd level spell at level at level 7.

At level 6, he could use SM 3 as spell-like ability and spam 4 SM 2 spells.
A sorcerer at level 6 can spam 4 SM 3 spells. (abyssal and celestial bloodline add DR, too.)

So a summoner could have 1 level 3 monster and 4 level 2 monster.
a sorcerer could have 1 level 3 and 3d3 level 2 monster...

And most fights don't last longer than 6 rds.

I don't see the summoner as overpowered.

 

[Fangor the Fierce]

Yes - from what I have seen, Eidolon and Summoned Monsters can be in use at the same time. I don't think the Summoner is overpowered, as they are dependent on their 'hoard' of monsters. Kill/knockout the Summoner, the monsters go away. Or do they stay in play should the summoner be unconscious?

 

[Dragonwriter]

Ok we shall try it as is for that is the consensus but we should keep an eye out for imbalance. And like I said if a caster is tied up and gagged etc and still lightning bolts the bad guys I don't think I will like that to much.

Thank you. I also don't expect to be doing such things. (Remember, if it matters that much to you, have them blindfold the casters.)

Let's see what else did I need to address, oh nerfed ability. You do know DW that when you take the Summon Monster spell you will be allowed to have your SLA or eidolon and the monsters you summon via the spell at the same time. It's only the SLA monsters and eidolon that don't mix.

So if you say casted Summon Monster III(SLA) and Summon Monster III from your spells you could have up to 2d4+2 (4-10) Celestial Riding Dogs possible with Augment Summoning stats to boot.

But that takes up one of my precious Spells Known. I learn like a Bard and have a low CHA for what is supposed to be a high CHA class... My spells will go more towards Buffs, I think.

Oh that's what I wanted to say, from the IC, it isn't a regular dog you summon it says riding dog in the list. They have trip and also a 6 CHA so no extra smite damage?!? Is that correct or do celestial creatures get a minimum of one for that? Don't see anything on that. Doesn't matter these guys aren't "evil" but wanted to know for later.

Uh, I'm only seeing a regular Dog on the PFSRD list (I don't have the PF Core book). If it is actually a Riding Dog, awesome for me! But I thought it was just a Dog, according to the SM1 list.

Note: Summon Monster VI(SLA) and spell = possible 2d4+2 (4-10) Celestial Dire Wolves !?! ummm.... yikes )

Nerfed my a...

HM

Of course, in order to cast any Summon Monster as a spell, I have to learn it and spend a round casting it, allowing for counterspells and disrupting attacks. And if I use the SLA, I can't use my Eidolon, which should put my summoned critters to shame.
(And that little combo is no worse than a Druid. They don't even have to prepare/know the Summon spell.)

 

[HolyMan]

LOL you guys aren't on this side of the DM screen.

That little dog stopped the thugs outside from coming in and joining in the fight, so right there that ability helped tremedously.

But again it doesn't really have anything to do with this class(summoner), as much as other SLA's that I see trouble in the future, but time will tell.

And a note I will use the books more than the PRD, so it lists under Summon Monster I the following:

Dire rat*
Dolphin*
Eagle*
Fire bettle*
Poisonous frog*
Pony(horse)*
Riding dog*
Viper(snake)*

* this creature is summoned with the celestial template if you are good, the fiendish template if you are evil, you may choose either if you are neutral.

Someone find me a picture of a fiendish dolphin please LOL.

HM

 

[Dragonwriter]

LOL you guys aren't on this side of the DM screen.

That little dog stopped the thugs outside from coming in and joining in the fight, so right there that ability helped tremedously.

Well, that was kinda the point of summoning it, though I was thinking just for flanking the guy in front of me. Blockade helps, though. But remember, anyone could have done that, without being a Summoner.

But again it doesn't really have anything to do with this class(summoner), as much as other SLA's that I see trouble in the future, but time will tell.

Most SLAs would be coming from monsters (or summoned creatures), and we will deal with them. If you're controlling them, we'll just figure out how to beat them down. And if they're on our side... Well, we'll be happy.

And a note I will use the books more than the PRD, so it lists under Summon Monster I the following:

Dire rat*
Dolphin*
Eagle*
Fire bettle*
Poisonous frog*
Pony(horse)*
Riding dog*
Viper(snake)*

* this creature is summoned with the celestial template if you are good, the fiendish template if you are evil, you may choose either if you are neutral.

Someone find me a picture of a fiendish dolphin please LOL.

HM

Well that's interesting... It would seem the PF Core book gave Summon Monster 1 a boost. Because the 3.5 SRD and PFSRD both say just Dog, not Riding Dog.

By the way, since you asked...
[sblock=Evil Dolphins]

And

[/sblock]

 

[HolyMan]

darn no pictures in that sblock just white squares with an "x" in them.

And anyone could have blocked the door but the difference is a PC in the doorway taking damage is alot more RP than a dog you summon and don't really care about.

HM