WotC mistakes that cause you headaches -

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Additionally, that is anawful loto f highl evel spell slots yo uare spendingthere son. Quicken Spells take up slots four levels higher than the spell itself and Evard Black tentacles and Delayed blast fireball arent exactly low level spells. On top of that Time Stop is a 9th level spell. If any ofthat doesnt work,which at epic levels im expecting alot of saves to be made and probably a cape of the mountebank and suddenly you wasted a whole slew of spells.

If you intend to develop an epic spell that is essentially a Maximized Time Stop - you can pull this stunt off at Character Level 21 without too much difficulty.

Second I believe I explicitly mentioned a Staff of Delayed Blast Fireball... so no slots, just a lot of charges. Be a Vampire, and have a Plane of Mirrors around to "run away" into.

The "Quickened Spells" was just to make the idea all the less palatable.

What I don't like about these kind of spells is "Suprise Round" - or "Roll For Initiative"... and bodies hit the floor before Players or NPC's can even act. It's Unethical, yes. Once the spell "goes off" - it's unstoppable (pardon the pun).

It is a blatant PC or NPC "Powergame" move that borders on pure Munchkin. Matter of fact, about the only thing that doesn't make it Munchkin is that it's allowed by RAW.

 

[hong]

Matter of fact, about the only thing that doesn't make it Munchkin is that it's allowed by RAW.

WTF?

 

[khyron1144]

As someone that has played 2e extensively and 3e a good bit and owns and is reasonably familiar with most rules sets, my error list is a lot different:
1) What happened to ability score checks (make a Dex check to keep your balance)?
2) Can three saves really do that much work?
3) Where is Continual Darkness?
4) How many times are they going to revise Wildshape and/or Polymorph spells?
5) What happened to magical aging?
6) Why is Deities and Demigods so thin on pantheons?

 

[Land Outcast]

If you intend to develop an epic spell that is essentially a Maximized Time Stop - you can pull this stunt off at Character Level 21 without too much difficulty.

Then this is not an existing spell. If you want to go that way: create an epic spell of hiper-power which has tons of backlash to reduce the Spellcraft DC, and raises you back to life a round after the backlash was received.

Be a Vampire, and have a Plane of Mirrors around to "run away" into.

Matter of fact, about the only thing that doesn't make it Munchkin is that it's allowed by RAW.

FTW?


Sorry to repeat the question, but what edition are we talking about?

 

[Wraith Form]

I love when geeks argue!


~ducks for cover~

 

[jensun]

I'm truly curious about the Time Stop thing. I've played in and ran games for five years using Time Stop, most of that involving min-maxers in an arena. Time Stop has never been a problem, especially not since 3.5.

Traditionally it involves layering a bunch of ongoing spell effects over an area in a minimal amount of time.

Often these will involve some combination of Wall of Force/Force Cage and some means of preventing teleportation. Dimensional Anchor beforehand or Dimensional Lock during the Timestop.

Prime candidates tend to be:

Cloudkill
Acid Fog
Evards

Personally I am fond of killing enemy spellcasters as follows:

Cast Timestop
Move next to enemy
Gate in large unpleasant grapply type monster
Cast Forcecage around you both
Cast Anti Magic Shell
Have monster kill wizard
Collect Loot

Yes it takes a few spells but far fewer than it is likely to take if you fight "fair."

 

[James McMurray]

Maximize Time Stop - and have a staff with "Delayed Blast Fireball" Use Evard's Black Tentacles Quickened for a kicker (it's an area effect, so it doesn't start to grab em until the end of the time stop, but does it matter?)

So they see the glowing beads and move away. At epic levels or even levels 17+ power gamed enough to give maximized time stops, evard's black tentacles is a joke. You're probably better off tossing out an empowered meteor swarm for 32d6 * 1.5 damage and no saving throw. You do slightly less damage (48d6 effective vs. 50d6 effective) but you have a feat (empower) that's more efficient for you and haven't burnt a bunch of staff charges.

Under 3.0 rules, <snip>

So you're complaining about an out of date rule set? Okely dokely.

The only thing you have to get around is that annoying "target him directly" factor. And if you have the experience at bypassing SR indirectly, a PC is sure to be dead.

Have you read Time Stop, or are you still carrying on about 3.0?

Yes, 3.0 Time Stop was a mistake. It's been fixed.

If you intend to develop an epic spell that is essentially a Maximized Time Stop - you can pull this stunt off at Character Level 21 without too much difficulty.

Yes, the epic spell creation rules were a mistake. They work great as long as there's a GM willing to say No.

1) What happened to ability score checks (make a Dex check to keep your balance)?

Most of that was converted to skills that can be used untrained. You can still makea dex check to keep your balance, but if it's important to your concept you can put ranks in balance too.

2) Can three saves really do that much work?

Are there situations where you don't think they cover all the bases? I haven't seen any.

4) How many times are they going to revise Wildshape and/or Polymorph spells?

Hopefully the PH2 version is the last.

Then this is not an existing spell. If you want to go that way: create an epic spell of hiper-power which has tons of backlash to reduce the Spellcraft DC, and raises you back to life a round after the backlash was received.

Are you sure you want to lose a level? True Rez isn't part of the Life Seed.

Often these will involve some combination of Wall of Force/Force Cage and some means of preventing teleportation. Dimensional Anchor beforehand or Dimensional Lock during the Timestop.

Yeah, I've seen those. But there are ways around them, especially at that level.

Cast Timestop
Move next to enemy
Gate in large unpleasant grapply type monster
Cast Forcecage around you both
Cast Anti Magic Shell
Have monster kill wizard
Collect Loot

That's nice, although I'd say the "broken" part there is the Gate. The 1,000xp hit and the fact that you're now inside an antimagic field would make my players think twice about using it. You've used 1000xp, 1500gp, two of the most powerful 9th level spells, and one of the most powerful 6th level spells. I'd hope it's a powerful combination.

My point is that when you're playing at levels 17+ broken is an entirely different realm than it is at level 16-. Those are powerful combos, but easily avoidable by anything that has lived long enough and fought enough fights to survive to be a challenge to a party that is nearing the epics.

 

[jensun]

That's nice, although I'd say the "broken" part there is the Gate. The 1,000xp hit and the fact that you're now inside an antimagic field would make my players think twice about using it. You've used 1000xp, 1500gp, two of the most powerful 9th level spells, and one of the most powerful 6th level spells. I'd hope it's a powerful combination.

I would say that the broken parts are the Gate and the ability to do it all in less than one round without your opponent being able to react.

Yes, you expend some xp and cash (although you could save on that by using Wall of Force) but you are getting back more xp and probably more cash then you have expended with no real risk of taking any damage either to you or your party.

While you may be in an AMF you are also inside a solid cage of force. If someone tries to get around it then you drop the AMF.

 

[jensun]

My point is that when you're playing at levels 17+ broken is an entirely different realm than it is at level 16-. Those are powerful combos, but easily avoidable by anything that has lived long enough and fought enough fights to survive to be a challenge to a party that is nearing the epics.

OK, let me ask a slightly tangential question. What, if anything, would you consider "broken" in 3.5, sticking purely to the Core rules?

 

[James McMurray]

Shapechange, far and away the most broken thing printed. Remove the ability to gain (Su) stuff and it's much better. For instance, your AMF cage match should have involved a Shapechange into a beholder instead of an antimagic field.

Lay on Hands. It makes most undead boss monsters pointless because the paladin can hit them with a huge chunk of damage via a no save touch attack.

Turn Undead. It's too weak and works backwards. Skeletons and Zombies should be the easiest things to turn, but very quickly become impossible for a cleric whose level is witin one of their CR. After 7th level or so almost all undead require either a big investment in turning or a very lucky roll to turn them, when they're turnable at all.

Wish. Again, not because it's too powerful. The 5,000xp price tag means it never gets cast, while Miracles happen all the time. Either Miracle needs to be lowered in power or Wish needs to be free when duplicating spell effects.

Polymorph and Polymorph any Object are broken when using just the core rules. They nullify the need for most LA races, especially the ones that are focused on physical combat. They also outmatch buff spells of equal and sometimes higher level.

Epic Spell creation is broken. It's too hard to get simple effects and too easy to get vastly powerful effects.

Character wealth levels at epic levels are broken. Money is too low to get epic items until you're well past 25th. This is probably more a problem with the x10 multiplier than the wealth levels.

If you consider anything in the SRD as core, there are several broken things in psionics, such as the powers whose DCs increase at a 1:1 ratio for power points spent.

If you're playing an arena game, many of the things that are balanced by having a short duration become broken because resources and durations matter a lot less.

I don't know if it's broken, but the inability to get +2 Wis and +2 Cha player races at +0 LA annoys me.

Animal Growth is borderline broken. They were smart enough to reel in Righteous Might but left it's multi-targetted version alone.

Entangle isn't broken, especially in a dungeon campaign, but it's probably too strong for a first level spell.