WotC should make an online SRD....

[BobTheNob]

What I actually want is a character assistant. My players are simply overwhelmed by the amount of things to choose from out there. I want to be able to find things by search terms such as
* "Feats that affect my AC"
* "Powers I can pick that target willpower"
* "Good race picks for this class"
* "Means by which I can have a really good skill in X"
e.t.c. e.t.c.
Name/text searching just dont do it for me, I want "theme searching"

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Um, just to point out: Paizo's industry is almost entirely based around .pdf sales, so claiming that "pdf roleplaying industry is a dead industry" doesn't really work.

Pdfs bring in new customers. They bring in lots of new customers. People do their shopping online now, and they're just as likely to see those online books just as often as their normal books. Beyond that, pdfs are incredibly convinient. It's way easier to look up bookmarks and find exact details then it is in a regular book. This isn't the 80's anymore man - maybe brick and mortar stores aren't dying, but they sure as hell aren't flourishing either, and the iPad and Kindle are making boatloads of cash as everyone is rushing to own one. They call it the digital age and the age of information for a reason.

I know a lot of people who own illegal pdfs of 4e books, who would've bought those same files had they actually been for sale. That's money lost, and it's lost for no reason at all. You can't complain about someone pirating your merchandise if you won't sell it.

I don't think piracy was the worry that shut down the online sales, I think it was a fear that online sales of pdfs would interfere with DDI membership. A fear that, I would wager, is entirely unfounded. However, WotC made their bed, and they made it very loudly and publicly. Trying to jump somewhere else would be yet another PR issue. The question is, is that potential PR issue worth more then the potential money you're hemmorhaging?

 

[Mirtek]

What would be a better UI for the Compendium?

Something like this

This.

They already -tried- the pdf route, and got -very- burned.

This isn't a 'they'll never do it' it's a case of 'they did it and it did not work.'

And stopping doing this hasn't made the burns they still regularly receive any less painfull. The books still appear as small megabyte, full color, full OCRed PDFs all over the pirate sites with delays of less than a week. The only thing that WotC was able to avoid is to accidently actually sell a few PDFs and earn some money.

The books contain a ton of fluff that's nowhere in the compendium. Plus, as others have pointed out above, the books are a source of revenue that would probably suffer a lot if they could all be downloaded with the subscription.

A great many players are already stopping buying any books because of their DDI subscriptions. At best fluff books like Open Grave and Draconomicon are still bought, but that's it. From talking to the players I meet locally at game days, almost no one with a DDI description is still buying splat books.

No, their policy amounts to someone has to take an optical scanner and do the job which makes it the pirate have to work harder to do it, increasing the amount of time between book release and pirate's release by a window of a couple weeks.

Yet there still seem to be plenty people angry enough at WotC (or for whatever else reason) to see high quality PDFs within less than two weeks, often less than one week.

 

[CovertOps]

Something like this

They will never do that again and comments like this are wishful thinking. Many of the comments I've seen about PDF's from WOTC have suggested price points like $5-$10 and the link you gave is when WOTC essentially gave their rule-set away for FREE. The fact of the matter is that the printing of the book is a very small portion of the cost of the actual book because of Intellectual Property. Also people are less willing to pay for IP (note here about software piracy - or music downloads - or movie downloads) when they can just steal it for free which they will do if they feel they are being ripped off on the price of the product.

I believe what it comes down to is that WOTC could not find a price/distribution strategy that works the way they want it to work that would be acceptable to consumers while simultaneously protecting their IP from rampant redistribution on the web.

 

[MrMyth]

They will never do that again and comments like this are wishful thinking. Many of the comments I've seen about PDF's from WOTC have suggested price points like $5-$10 and the link you gave is when WOTC essentially gave their rule-set away for FREE.

Hold up a moment - I think he was proposing the format of the SRD as a format for the compendium, not as a free release tot he public. I can see the argument - rather than having to scroll through powers 1 by 1, you could pull up a larger list at a time, and potentially view larger entries (like classes) in a more readable format.

Honestly, even though I like it most of them, I wouldn't object to a simpler option, since the UI for the compendium can be slow and cumbersome.

I suspect it may not be likely, though - even if it required DDI access, having pages formated like the old SRD would probably be a bit easier for a user to download in bulk and share for free. Which I suspect happens with the current compendium even now, but a more straightforward design would probably make pirating easier.

It isn't an impossibility, though - but I think they have bigger things on their mind these days than reformatting the compendium design.

 

[Mirtek]

They will never do that again and comments like this are wishful thinking.

Why not? I am only talking about the UI, not about the concept. I am perfectly happy if it stays subscribers only and forbidden for 3rd party publishers. I just want the ease of use back

the link you gave is when WOTC essentially gave their rule-set away for FREE.

And now they're sellint their rule-set on a subscription basis. There's no reason they couldn't make this service as comfortable to use as in the link I gave.

I believe what it comes down to is that WOTC could not find a price/distribution strategy that works the way they want it to work that would be acceptable to consumers while simultaneously protecting their IP from rampant redistribution on the web.

Yet their IP is still completely unprotected from rampant distribution on the web. The only thing it's now protected from are the few legal sales they could make.

 

[DracoSuave]

Um, just to point out: Paizo's industry is almost entirely based around .pdf sales, so claiming that "pdf roleplaying industry is a dead industry" doesn't really work.

Paizo's entire industry is based on selling 3rd edition to 3rd edition fans.

They're not bringing in new gamers with PDFs.

Pdfs bring in new customers.

No pdf-selling company advertises or attracts new customers to -the rpg market.- What they all do is try to advertise -to- the rpg market. Paizo is no different. What Paizo is NOT doing is -creating- new market opportunities.

That's where your brick and mortar shops come in, as they can -demonstrate- the gaming products in a way a website simply cannot.

PDFs are to sell to existing markets, but they do not open new markets, and the future of the industry -requires- the opening of new markets to replace the closing of old ones.

I know a lot of people who own illegal pdfs of 4e books, who would've bought those same files had they actually been for sale. That's money lost, and it's lost for no reason at all. You can't complain about someone pirating your merchandise if you won't sell it.

But those books -are- for sale. You go to the brick and mortar and you buy them. This isn't really a true argument.

I don't think piracy was the worry that shut down the online sales, I think it was a fear that online sales of pdfs would interfere with DDI membership. A fear that, I would wager, is entirely unfounded. However, WotC made their bed, and they made it very loudly and publicly. Trying to jump somewhere else would be yet another PR issue. The question is, is that potential PR issue worth more then the potential money you're hemmorhaging?

I think it's hard to criticize their viewpoint by using fear words such as 'hemmorhaging' potential money.

You -vastly- overestimate how much of a market there is for -games- in pdf form. They know what the sales are, and they know the cost to produce them, and they know the cost to DDI, and they know the cost to physical books. Wizards is one of the few gaming companies that has an active market research department. These you do not, and cannot speak of. We can speculate as to why, but we cannot properly criticize their business sense.

This isn't a case where they're afraid to 'try the future'. This is a case where they did, and it did not work.

So if you want to make a persuasive argument as to why it might work, you have to look at the situation -now- and see how it is different from -then.-

Things are not different now. So why would they reinstate a policy that they deemed to have failed? To think they should doesn't make sense from their standpoint.

And you have no evidence that WoTC does not have business acumen in this industry; this isn't T$R, this is the company that resurrected Dungeons and Dragons from the grave, and reasserted its position as a market-definer -before- 3rd edition, d20, and all that. You mention Paizo, a company which started its rpg presence publishing Dragon and Dungeon, and now publishes a knockoff of d20 and 3.5. This is a company that COULD NOT EXIST without the doors Wizards endevours to open.

I repeat to you, a PDF-only industry is a dead industry. Companies that are PDF-only are not creating new markets, they are competing for the same market. But they are -much- smaller and can afford to do so (when they aren't going under, which smaller companies do all the time). An existing market, however, is a shrinking market for entertainment items, as eventually, they'll move on and stop trying new products. That means you -need- new players, new buyers.

How does that happen with PDFs?

 

[CovertOps]

Yet their IP is still completely unprotected from rampant distribution on the web. The only thing it's now protected from are the few legal sales they could make.

You're assuming that "the few legal sales they could make" would generate profits and not have a negative impact on sales elsewhere. The resistance threshold for making a copy of a PDF you own and passing it around to your friends is a lot lower than going to the web and searching/downloading the same PDF. It also makes it quite likely that none of those people who now have a nice shiny PDF copy will buy book format.

Ultimately (as someone else expressed a few posts ago) all that either of us has is mere speculation as to why they're not doing it. They've made their decision and as consumers we either accept their decision or we boycott by not buying their products. Online debates like this having very little impact on which way people decide.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Paizo's entire industry is based on selling 3rd edition to 3rd edition fans.

They're not bringing in new gamers with PDFs.

I'd ask your numbers, but we both know that neither of us have any, so let's both agree that Paizo may or may not be bringing in any number of cats who may or may not be dead into the hobby.

No pdf-selling company advertises or attracts new customers to -the rpg market.- What they all do is try to advertise -to- the rpg market. Paizo is no different. What Paizo is NOT doing is -creating- new market opportunities.

Once again, I refer us back to Schrodinger's Customers.

That's where your brick and mortar shops come in, as they can -demonstrate- the gaming products in a way a website simply cannot.

PDFs are to sell to existing markets, but they do not open new markets, and the future of the industry -requires- the opening of new markets to replace the closing of old ones.

Your entire argument lies on us just sorta nodding and going "Oh man, that's so right, those pdfs are just garbage. The Man is trying to keep us out of the book and mortar stores, man! Righteous!"

No.

Online shopping is a thing. it is a very popular thing. Pretending it is not a thing does not cause it to cease existing.

But those books -are- for sale. You go to the brick and mortar and you buy them. This isn't really a true argument.

I don't buy apples and then mash them up myself when I want apple sauce.

Pdfs have a lot of great options and utility that normal books don't. Again, this ain't the 80's. It's easier to carry an external HD then a full bookshelf.

Here's how it breaks down: Bob wants a pdf of <book>. That pdf is not for sale, but it is available for illegal download. The owner of <book> will not be selling the pdf. What are Bob's choices? He can either 1) suck it down, or 2) Just download the damn thing and wonder why the owner doesn't want his money.

Physical books and pdfs are not created equal. One is good at somethings, the other is good at others. Wanting to have a pdf should not be a crime. WotC has made it one.

I think it's hard to criticize their viewpoint by using fear words such as 'hemmorhaging' potential money.

They found a leech, ripped it off, and didn't bother treating the open wound, causing blood to pour out. That's pretty much hemmorhaging.

You -vastly- overestimate how much of a market there is for -games- in pdf form. They know what the sales are, and they know the cost to produce them, and they know the cost to DDI, and they know the cost to physical books. Wizards is one of the few gaming companies that has an active market research department. These you do not, and cannot speak of. We can speculate as to why, but we cannot properly criticize their business sense.

Sure we can. Watch: I am criticizing their business sense, as they are losing potential money over their decision not to sell pdfs.

[This isn't a case where they're afraid to 'try the future'. This is a case where they did, and it did not work.

That we know of from the extremely limited press releases that also promised a return of some type of online sale of books.

So if you want to make a persuasive argument as to why it might work, you have to look at the situation -now- and see how it is different from -then.-

Things are not different now. So why would they reinstate a policy that they deemed to have failed? To think they should doesn't make sense from their standpoint.

Because to myself and many others, the policy did not fail - it was caused by faulty decision making.

And you have no evidence that WoTC does not have business acumen in this industry; this isn't T, this is the company that resurrected Dungeons and Dragons from the grave, and reasserted its position as a market-definer -before- 3rd edition, d20, and all that. You mention Paizo, a company which started its rpg presence publishing Dragon and Dungeon, and now publishes a knockoff of d20 and 3.5. This is a company that COULD NOT EXIST without the doors Wizards endevours to open.

What on earth are you going on about? I'm not claiming WotC is this horrible evil overlord that's keeping The People down, and that everything they do is crap. I'm saying they made a mistake and they're sticking with it. You know, like humans do. WotC isn't some horrid mythical beast that cackles with seven heads and ten horns. By the same line, they aren't angelic figures bringing in the seven seals for the Lion of Judah. It's a business run by people, and both people and businesses have been known to make mistakes.

I repeat to you, a PDF-only industry is a dead industry. Companies that are PDF-only are not creating new markets, they are competing for the same market. But they are -much- smaller and can afford to do so (when they aren't going under, which smaller companies do all the time). An existing market, however, is a shrinking market for entertainment items, as eventually, they'll move on and stop trying new products. That means you -need- new players, new buyers.

How does that happen with PDFs?

And yet once again, Schrodinger's Customers.

...Which I've used three times, and it's a shame, because I'm really only refering to the popular consensus on what the whole Schrodinger's Cat means rather then it's actual meaning in Physics. But, well, it (hopefully) gets the point across.

How does it happen with PDFs? Billy is surfing the internet because he saw Penny Arcade mention this cool thing called 4th edition. Wow, there's a thing for it on the internet he can buy, and he can just read it straight off his laptop! Done and done.

 

[CovertOps]

Sure we can. Watch: I am criticizing their business sense, as they are losing potential money over their decision not to sell pdfs.

Everyone who makes this general argument just blindly ignores the 1000 pound elephant in the room. The assumption here is this decision making tree

If we sell this product (in PDF format) will it generate revenue?
    If yes, then sell.
    If no, then don't sell.

The correct decision tree looks like this:

If we sell this product (in PDF format) will it generate [b]profit[/b]?
    If yes, then sell.
    If no, then don't sell.

Revenue is NOT king....PROFIT is king. If an action will result in a company making LESS PROFIT they won't do it. For whatever list of reasons WOTC has decided that they will LOSE PROFIT if they sell PDF's. Do you know why I know this? If there was PROFIT in it for them to sell PDF's we wouldn't be having this discussion.