WOTC undecided over OGL/GSL. Why you should care

[JeffB]

All the post says is that they are still reviewing the basic policy of the GSL. .

Actually that is NOT what it says.

Having worked for some time in marketing in a big corporation this would be my interpretation of the "spin".

"Higher-ups in the company are having second thoughts about whether we want to support Open-Gaming".

Not that I'm being panicky, nor trying to put words in WOTC employees mouths, cos it doesn't bother me one way or the other. But I think with the major delays and then that statement, I think Hasbro is having some serious concerns.

 

[Jack99]

Ainatin, I am not talking about "evil empires", I am trying to give some impetus to that part of WoTC that supports open gaming. I believe that a clash of cultures may be taking place and I want to influence the decision, which is obviously taking place as we speak.

I don't play WW games, mostly because they don't support open gaming.

If you don't have anything constructive to say, I really don't know why you post.

Lots of people might not think what you are saying is constructive. You are openly advocating that we boycott the soul of our hobby, because of what you think the industry should be like.

Regarding waiting: My point was, even if people agree with you, they might as well wait until a few days before release, and if an appropriate GSL hasn't been released by then, they could cancel then.

 

[GeorgeFields]

I am only asking that people consider not buying into 4E until after WoTC make an announcement about GSL.

I am not suggesting that others go and find another game system permanently, just because of GSL. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Considering they'll probably have it all done before the books hit the shelves, I don't think it's a problem. As another stated, pre-orders can be canceled up until the ship date.

Either way, I have no intention of buying it anyway as it doesn't appear to be for me. If someone I know gets it, I'll look through it; but it's got to rock my gaming world to change my mind.

 

[Ydars]

Zamkaiser; I mean "last time the company running D&D stopped listening to its customers and recognising that THEY are D&D, the game almost died" not "last time open gaming was shut down that game almost died".

TSR died because that women (I shall not speak her name), who hated gamers and gaming, got in control of TSR. I feel that the suits at Hasbro understand D&D about as well as she did and have much the same regard for us.

Don't be complacent; Games Workshop just pulled the plug on huge swaves of their gaming portfolio after years of corporate mismanagement. Some of those games were massive; Dark Heresy was the biggest seller in the UK, even beating WoTC by a mile according to my local gaming store. Yet it has gone down as well.

Think it could never happen to D&D, think again. D&D is small fry in the Hasbro world. If it doesn't pay, then they will dump it and I think they could be taking the first steps down the road to disaster.

Just look at how badly things have gone with Paizo. WoTC have basically set themselves up with a nice competitor. Everyone says "it doesn't matter". Well at my local store, 3.5E is still selling like hot cakes and the owner says all his customers are moving over to Paizo.

If OGL is scrapped as well, all the other 3PPs will do the same, and then we could have as much as 30% of gamers leaving D&D. If WoTC don't attract new gamers, D&D could be right up the creek.

I am just asking for people to show a little bit of vision and drop their pre-orders. If they make an announcement that GSL is safe, we can all order the books again.

 

[Voss]

So you don't think it is worrying that none of the 3 parties have seen the GSL yet despite it being 3 months after the official announcement of WoTC's plans.

For them to say that they are still vetting their policy suggests that there is some serious problem.

I am saying that maybe, WoTC are intending to stop open gaming and don't want to announce it until after the launch of 4E to avoid the negative publicity. This has been suggested by a number of others on the same thread I directed you to earlier.

Eh. All this suggests to me is that WotC is a little on the incompetent side.

As for your original points, here's my take on them, if you care.

Well YOU should care because if open gaming is scrapped it means three things;

1) the lunatics have taken over the asylum; corporates have taken over the creative direction of D&D 4E. Last time this happened, D&D almost died! Remember TSR.

Well, since the 'corporates' have had control over the creative direction of D&D since, well, at least since I started playing in the late 80s, I'm not sure what difference it would make. The OGL *never* meant that they didn't have creative control over D&D. It just meant that some other people could produce a lot of crap tinkering with the d20 system, Occassionally, hopefully, a few gems would be produced. By my lights, this didn't really happen. but then, I didn't expect it to.

2) All 3rd party publishers will HAVE to continue making products for 3.5E, creating even more competition for 4E, which could be VERY serious, despite what everyone thinks.

Its far more likely that the third parties will burn out and die. One or two will linger after the squabble over the market share of the dissenters (which may still include me, sadly, though watching paizo struggle with their alpha version makes me certain that trying to stick it out with a 3.75 is doomed, even if I wanted to), but the amount of money in the fringes of the RPG market isn't large.

3) The above means that support for 4E will be MUCH reduced and will all follow WoTC's official line. Whilst their products are good, their vision of the 4E world is not to everyone's taste and more diversity from 3PPs will keep more of the old guard of D&D playing the game.

Ok, here's where I really run into trouble with your point. I largely don't buy third party products. I certainly don't consider them 'support' for the main system, so their non-existence wouldn't diminish it in any meaningful way. Even if it did, if the 'old guard' doesn't like 4e, it will be on the basis of the core game. 3rd party products aren't going to go in and fix the essential problems in the basic system- they're going to be based on that system.

 

[Ydars]

Voss; your points are well made.

In the past 3PPs accounted for a tiny share of D&D. But I am not sure if that is true anymore. Since the announcement of 4E, our community has become riven with dissent. I LOVE the ideas behind 4e but every board I have been on is the same; many many people questioning 4E philosophy, timing etc. So I think it would be a brave person who discounts all this. I guess I discount it all until my local game store owner told me how many people he knew were sticking with 3.5E or going with Paizo.

I also agree that I personally, didn't like many 3PP supplments, etc but MANY people did (some of these games appear to have had print runs in the 10s of thousands if various press releases can be believed).

What I am taking about is the soul of D&D. I think we are that soul and up until now, WoTC have paid tribute to us through the OGL. If that dies, I take it as a sign that the last influences of the people who saved D&D from the TSR days may finally have gone.

Once this happens, I fear for D&D. I don't believe that D&D has been in the hands of corporates since TSR and before. Mike Mearls and other designers came out of OGL and are gamers just like us. So was Monte and Skip and all the others.

I am concerned that Bill S and the others now answer to Hasbro in a way that is distinct from what has been the case in the past and I am just trying to mobilise people to act together for once.

 

[Dinkeldog]

While discussing the topic, please keep in mind that this can be a very touchy subject. I have every faith that we can maintain a civil discourse that does not involve ascribing motives or writing off others' concerns.

 

[SSquirrel]

Jack99; if we wait until after WoTC have made an annoucement, what happens if this isn't until after the release of 4E? Once we have all bought in, those who oppose OGL with have already won because we can only hit them in their pockets.

The books have already gone to the printers, any GSL/OGL information will already be pinned down and in the books. Nothing is public yet at this time however. So a boycott will solve nothing as they already have this information decided otherwise they couldn't include the info in the books.

 

[griff_goodbeard]

Actually that is NOT what it says.

Having worked for some time in marketing in a big corporation this would be my interpretation of the "spin".

"Higher-ups in the company are having second thoughts about whether we want to support Open-Gaming".

Not that I'm being panicky, nor trying to put words in WOTC employees mouths, cos it doesn't bother me one way or the other. But I think with the major delays and then that statement, I think Hasbro is having some serious concerns.

That's how I read the statement as well. I won't be canceling any pre-orders, but I didn't pre-order in he first place. My plan was, and still is to wait till the books come out, do some research and decide if it's a system that will work for me. If 4e is a great system, I'll buy, even if it's not open.

I don't really understand why people feel they can only support one game. I currently support, and play when I get a chance (which unfortunatly isn't often, damn real life :shakes fist: ); D&D 3.5, M&M, WoD, AU, Paranoia, and Call of Cthulu. I like what I've seen with Pathfinder so I'll probably pick that up as well. Whether or not I pick up 4e won't stop me from playing M&M, Pathfinder, or any other game if I want to.

Now I do think it would be ill advised if the powers that be scrap the open gaming initiative, but even if they do it won't kill the hobby. The cat is already out of the bag. The OGL is unrevokable and the d20 system, while it has it's quirks, is solid. 3rd party publishers will always have a venue to create new and exciting game systems.

And as an aside, anyone who thinks someone won't figure out a way to make a OGL compliant "generic" version of 4e is nuts.

 

[HeinorNY]

What I am taking about is the soul of D&D. I think we are that soul and up until now, WoTC have paid tribute to us through the OGL. If that dies, I take it as a sign that the last influences of the people who saved D&D from the TSR days may finally have gone.

"we" who?
The players?
So Wotc pays tribute to me with open gaming? How? I don't even care about most 3rd party produtcs.
I believe WOTC "pays a tribute" to me by selling me great products. And that's why I think
WOTC has been so successful, because they make quality products I've never seen in all these years of gaming, and not because of open gaming, not because there were some 3rd party publisher out there releasing M&Ms, True20s, AEs, Spycraft and so on.

If 4E is as good as 3E, I consider that tribute well payed.