D&D 4E WotC_Rodney: 4ed "take only what you want" monster design good

[Kwalish Kid]

Not sure if I really like monsters by fiat. On either side of the table.

You would have hated every edition of D&D except 3rd.

 

[Gundark]

It sounds like the nightmare of figuring out what a monster got by adding x hit dice is thankfully gone. I hated looking up the BAB/Skill points/feats/ CR of monster type y because I added 10 extra hit dice.

Sounds wonderful to me.

 

[Voss]

You would have hated every edition of D&D except 3rd.

Thats good to know. Except the only one I really despised was 2nd, since it was just a re-edit and consolidation of First. BXCMI and first were fine for the time, 3rd has degenerated with pretty much every non-Core release.

Wait, what was your point again?

 

[TerraDave]

But if I told you, "Monsters of level X have a baseline of Y hit points," then also told you that monsters filling a certain role have Z% more/less hit points, and gave you guidelines for how to make it tougher without completely breaking the encounter...doesn't that solve that problem as well as a formula? I mean, if the issue is judging appropriate power levels, and I tell you what the appropriate power levels are, doesn't that resolve the issue?

Thanks Rodney! To bad so few posters here seemed to notice this...

Oh, and I hope we are going to see this system in the DMG or MM.

 

[heirodule]

Sometimes the Players do complain about the cheesiness of NPCs with abilities that they can never have.

I think its in ToEE (1e) that Gygax has some hobgoblins that have through "long practice" gained the ability to hurl maces.

The players that went though that universally mocked that and wondered why they couldn't learn the same trick.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Sometimes the Players do complain about the cheesiness of NPCs with abilities that they can never have.

I think its in ToEE (1e) that Gygax has some hobgoblins that have through "long practice" gained the ability to hurl maces.

The players that went though that universally mocked that and wondered why they couldn't learn the same trick.

This is certainly something that would be annoying, because it's an extremely humanoid creature (more of an NPC, as you say, than a monster), doing something that PCs can't, for no apparent reason. Which universally seems to drive players, and even many GMs, berserk. Myself included.

Of course, in 3E, he'd probably just have had some elaborate Hobgoblin-only PrC which gave that ability, which really is pretty much the same deal.

In 4E, I will be peeved if I see lots of humanoid creatures doing "player-impossible" things which PCs clearly *could* physically do. I mean, acid-spitting Orc shaman? Sure, implies different physiology, magic, etc. Boulder-hurling Ogre? Sure. Mace-hurling Hobgoblin? Better have a way for a PC to do the same, imo.

Non-humanoid monsters, though, I've never really heard any complaints about this ("Omg that damn dragon can fly and breath fire and has multiple attacks! Hax!").

 

[Walking Dad]

Sometimes the Players do complain about the cheesiness of NPCs with abilities that they can never have.

I think its in ToEE (1e) that Gygax has some hobgoblins that have through "long practice" gained the ability to hurl maces.

The players that went though that universally mocked that and wondered why they couldn't learn the same trick.

Typical player reaction. I'm ok with no breath weapon, no natural armor, innitiate magic abilities...
but I have to throw this mace.

 

[Wormwood]

Sometimes the Players do complain about the cheesiness of NPCs with abilities that they can never have.

I wonder if that's primarily a "D&D player" thing?

I've never seen that sort of attitude in the groups I play with---but we play many other games besides D&D.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I wonder if that's primarily a "D&D player" thing?

I've never seen that sort of attitude in the groups I play with---but we play many other games besides D&D.

I really don't think so. I've seen comments in MMORPGs about similar abilities plenty of times "How come Boss X who is effectively Class Y can do this but I can't?" or "How come Mob Z's Thunderclap does all this stuff that my Thunderclap doesn't?". Particularly in WoW, but also in other MMORPGs.

P&P-wise I've seen this in a variety of RPGs, from Werewolf to GURPS.

People don't question, in my experience, clearly magical abilities, or abilities that are due to physiology, just ones that are due to "training".

 

[Wormwood]

<snip>

Hmm. Food for thought.

Thanks!