D&D 4E Would 4E be Popular?

[jodyjohnson]

While I wouldn't want to see an update to 4.0 any time soon, ironically I would immediately buy a second printing of all three books including the errata (at a price less than $75 leather-bound).

Instead of 4.0, I'd like a see one or more Unearthed Arcana's that give alternate rules for spells, classes, turning, meta-magic and other things that get house ruled on a regular basis.

Maybe a "Tome of Magic" book that gives 'fixed" versions of the staple PHB problem spells without resorting to errata for the PHB. Use the alternates or use the original (in some way folks already do this with using 3.5 spells in 3.0 or the reverse). Instead of new spell after new spell.

For example,

Low magic teleport, raise dead or scry. An alternate version of Magic Missile. Etc.
Spells specifically listed to replace the core version with maybe a paragraph on why change.

Or a small chapter on the transformation spells. Or planar summoning (esp. Gate).

 

[Kanegrundar]

Now? No.

In 2010-2012 A.D.? Maybe.

If it's that long, I may not have a problem with a new edition. After all, in that amount of time a new edition may be necesarry to kick start the creative juices once again.

What I was trying to get at, but messed up in the initial post, was with all the talk of 4E "in the pipeline" last year to now, if 4E would be a good decision. Now if it's like what Merric talked about a new edition in the way that 3.5 was a "new" edition, then I doubt I'd have much of a problem with it. It took a while for me to swtich over to 3.5 (due to finances), but once I did I was happy with the changes. A whole new way of playing D&D, however, isn't a game I'm looking for ATM. Like you said REG, in 2010-2012...who knows?

Kane

 

[National Acrobat]

Who says that move to 3e wasn't popular? I know tons of people that had completely dropped out of D&D during (or even before, in my case) 2e and had no interest in it until 3e came around.

I doubt 4e will be any less popular than 3.5 in any case, unless it's not enough of a change, or it happens too soon and just pisses folks off.

Hmm, the reverse can be said also. I know roughly 10 people who tried 3E and 3.5 and think it's the worse version of the game ever. It's impossible to please everyone. 4E would just be, as others have said, loved by many, loathed by many, and house ruled by a lot. In essence, no different than any version of the game.

 

[Psion]

Hmm, the reverse can be said also. I know roughly 10 people who tried 3E and 3.5 and think it's the worse version of the game ever. It's impossible to please everyone. 4E would just be, as others have said, loved by many, loathed by many, and house ruled by a lot. In essence, no different than any version of the game.

Well, I can't counter you any way other than anecdotally (well I could... I think that sales figure show 3e to be something of a hit... ), but after 3e, the local gaming mailing list went from daily D&D bash fest to a place that almost universally talks about D&D, and the local gaming scene went from impossible to find D&D players to having to turn players away.

I think you underestimate the popularity in 3e compared to 2e.

 

[CockyWriter]

Don't even joke about that.

Heh, I was paid to review that game.

 

[National Acrobat]

Well, I can't counter you any way other than anecdotally (well I could... I think that sales figure show 3e to be something of a hit... ), but after 3e, the local gaming mailing list went from daily D&D bash fest to a place that almost universally talks about D&D, and the local gaming scene went from impossible to find D&D players to having to turn players away.

I think you underestimate the popularity in 3e compared to 2e.

No, actually I don't. I understand how popular it is. I also know that from my own experience, and from those that I know personally who game, 3E (and 2E for that matter) has not been popular. My own group, and groups of a few of my friends who don't RP in my group, have switched to Castles and Crusades, or returned to 1E. I think it's a matter of taste, and given that most of the people I know who game are over 30, I think that has a lot to do with it. Plus, given the amount of used 3.0 and 3.5 books in the bin at our FLGS, I would say that there are a few folks in my locality who just haven't become that fond of it.

As for it's World Wide popularity, I wouldn't dispute that at all. It brought many friends of mine who hadn't played in awhile back to the game, but they moved on to Castles and Crusades.

 

[Kanegrundar]

I agree wholeheartedly, Psion. In my area (no LGS's in my home town, but 3 within and hour drive), 2E was fairly well despised. There were D&D groups, but the rules were so houseruled that it wasn't 2E anymore (that was definantly true in my case before I swtiched to Alternity). Most people were playing other games from GURPS to WoD, and the D&D material was just sitting on the shelves. Then 3E came along. I was wary because of how much I disliked 2E (despite having a lot of fun with it at times), but when Eric Noah started up his website and info started to come out, I got interested in D&D again. Once 3E came out, it was hard to find on the shelves of any of the gaming shops I visited. The early D20 products flew off the shelves just as fast. Even today, there is a pre-order waiting list for new WotC D&D releases as well as the major D20 releases. That makes me think that it's still a very good selling game. Now there are groups all over the place. There are even a couple in my small home town, when my group was the only one around. 3/3.5 is as strong of a version of D&D as we have ever seen...and I dare say may see for some time to come.

Kane

 

[Krieg]

Who says that move to 3e wasn't popular? I know tons of people that had completely dropped out of D&D during (or even before, in my case) 2e and had no interest in it until 3e came around.

It depends on the demographic in question. I think it is fair to say that among hard core AD&D players it wasn't overly popular.

Eh, same here about the stuff produced before 3.0, for the most part. Boxed sets like Ravenloft and Planescape being notable exceptions.

Yeah but Diago has 80x has many posts as you, so the opinions must be weighted accordingly.

 

[Rasyr]

Okay, having just read through both pages of this thread, there are several things that I would like to comment on. First, I will make a few general comments, and then some specific replies to a few posters (this is likely to take a while, so hang on to your garters!).

First off, I do believe that 4E will be coming out next year (2006), and that it will be much more mini oriented than the 3.x versions. I also believe that it will not be OGL, that it will be a closed system. I have a number of reasons for believing this, but won't get into them in detail here as I have already done so in other threads.

Will 4E be popluar? I have no idea. However, I do know that there is a large portion of D&D players who will purchase just because it says D&D on the cover. I doubt that very few of that type are here on these forums, and that relatively few of that group are even online (except for maybe the WotC forums, from what I hear, that place is full of many highly D&D-centric gamers). The first that they will hear of it is through Dragon (advertisements or special features).

I do not think that the issue of popularity with gamers (online or otherwise) will be what drives the release of 4E. I think that it will be economic issues, rather than system issues.

I can't speak for the market as a whole. But, I for one am dreading a 4th edition. In order for it to be successful WoC knows it will have to have some ground-breaking changes, and thus it will not be backword compatable with all the cruch-heavy products 3.5 as given us.

I do not expect backwards-compatability either, especially if it is more minis oriented like I think it will be.

I'd buy it.

Don't tell Hasbro I said that, okay.

I think that not only do they already know this, but this is what they would be counting on. That many folks would buy it just because it is D&D.

4e will be popular if for no other reason than it's D&D. There's a lot of brand loyalty to the game.

Yes, there will be craploads of complaining about it, regardless of when it's released. How long was ADD2e around for? At least 10 years, wasn't it? The way some people reacted when WotC announced 3e, you'd have thought time and space were about to collapse.

I'd bet they got as much flak then as when they did 3.5. That in itself says a lot. For all the complaining, 3e sold very well. For all the complaining 2 or so years later, 3.5 has sold very well. As consumers, we've basically told WotC that it doesn't matter if it's 10 years or 2, we'll probably come grudgingly along for the ride.

Exactly! This is why Hasbro/WotC would not be overly worried about doing a new edition IMO. Sure, there would be lots of complaints, and then many would go ahead and get it anyways.

That's the reason why I think a 4th edition within the next year or two would extremely unpopular decision.

And 3.5 being released 3 years after 3.0 was not an unpopular decision? It was, it was very unpopular, until it came out. Then folks bought it anyways. The same type of thing will happen for 3E when/if it appears.

I'm pretty sure that 4e will be very successful! ((snipped the rest of an excellent post))

You are quite right in every detail in your post. It is the marketing numbers that will determine things, not anything else.

Not that long ago, Charles Ryan said something to the effect that 2004 was the best year yet. I seem to remember that the same thing was said about 2001 (the year after 3.0 was released) as well.

Year 1 - release (2000, 2003)
Year 2 - best year in sales (2001, 2004)
Year 3 - sales drop a little bit (2002, 2005)
Year 4/1 - new release (2003, 2006)

That is the pattern that I am seeing. I may, of course, be wrong and next year (2006) will prove whether I am or not, but that is what I am seeing/extrapolating. It is very similar to the CCG business model. Major core releases every few years, with major non-core (Eberron?) in the years inbetween.

The more complex answer cannot be given without knowign the content of 4e.

Think "More minis dependance!"

Certainly, there are areas that could be improved - and they likely will be in 4e - but there isn't the impetus for an Entirely New System.

I don't think anybody has said 4E would be an entirely new system, well, at least I haven't. I have said that I think it will be much more mini oriented, but other than that, I have not made any guesses.

Consider also that an entirely new system also completely destroys any expertise the Wizards designers have in the system!

Huh?!?!?!?! If Wizard's designers ARE the ones who design 4E, then they will pretty much automatically have the expertise in the the system that THEY design. That much is a given. You cannot design a system without having expertise in what you are designing. Now, some of their authors may no longer have system expertise, but that is a different story altogether.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

I'll say this much: I'm not ready for 4th Edition now, two years from now or even 6 years from now. However, I do forsee a pattern with DnD revisions: A new edition seemingly comes out once evry ten years or so with an appropriate .5 revision that started with 2nd Edition. I started gaming back in 1991, when second edition was available. However, neither myself nor my GM knew of 2nd Edition. Also, it seems as if most of the older gamers I know are pretty much biased against 3rd Edition. And those older gamers that aren't biased against 3rd Edition are biased against 3.5. Now, I am a DnD Fanatic and I'll probably continue to buy the most current books to date. Tha't doesn't mean I'm going to like 'em. It just means I'll be scouring the books for new ideas for my D20 3rd Edition and D20 Modern games.