Would a feat that did this be too powerful?

[Mordane76]

Out of respect to another thread, I've created a new thread to begin discussing this topic...

This allow came out of the ranger feat thread, and I brought up the idea of a feat that made feinting in combat a move-equivalent action...

Originally posted by Khorod:

Maybe there should be a feat that reduces Int, Wis, and Cha-based skill checks from one round to a Move-Equiv

Personally, I think that this would be too powerful, but I agree that a feat that only reduced a feint to a move-equivalent action might not be powerful enough to be worthwhile.

 

[Crothian]

I think a single feat that makes feinting a move eq action is pretty darn good. A charcter built for feinting can do amazing amounts of damage. I had a fighter/rogue built for this with such a feat.

I agree that one feat that makes all those types of skills a move eq is too powerful.

 

[Mordane76]

Now... what should such a feat entail?

Should Have Seen It Coming... (General, Fighter)
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13+, Lightning Reflexes, Bluff 5+ ranks
Benefits: A character may use a Feint in combat as a move-equivalent action.
Normal: A feint is a standard action.

 

[Crothian]

The one we used had the Prerequites as Dex 15 +, Skill Focus Bluff, and BAB 2+

 

[Guilt Puppy]

Posted a similar feat for feint alone a long time ago, and it was torn apart pretty rightly: Basically, it has the potential to double your damage in a wide category of situations, if you're a Rogue, and very little use to non-Rogues. Any rogue who wants to deal damage would be a fool not to have this feat: Suddenly, the only situation in which you can't get a sneak attack (each and every round) is against enemies who are immune to sneak attack.

You'll note that the feinting rules (unless I'm remembering grossly incorrectly) don't specify melee attacks, either. I think there should be some sort of "Improved Feint" skill, but it's not something you should be able to do all in one round (strictly for balance reasons.)

 

[Nail]

Any rogue who wants to deal damage would be a fool not to have this feat: Suddenly, the only situation in which you can't get a sneak attack (each and every round) is against enemies who are immune to sneak attack.

Or enemies who have seen you feint before.

As Bluff is a DM-heavy skill, I doubt there's much room for abuse here. Tons of room for "circumstance" modifiers, to the tune of +2, +4, +6, etc. Sure, the rogue might get this off once or twice in combat, but after that.......?

(shrug) It's no worse that Haste.

 

[Crothian]

Also, that means the rogue can't move and get out of the way from the counter attack. Personally, with flanking be so easy to achieve through tumble, I've never seen a rogue not get sneak attack damage who wanted it.

 

[Nail]

Also, that means the rogue can't move and get out of the way from the counter attack. Personally, with flanking be so easy to achieve through tumble, I've never seen a rogue not get sneak attack damage who wanted it.

Oh great and Iconic Poster Crothian:

Wouldn't a rogue that had attacked, then moved away from his opponent suffer an AoO from that opponent? After all, he's moving out of a threatened area, and moving is NOT the only thing he's done that round (as his bloody rapier can attest).

IOW, why would the rogue care if his MEA is taken away? He wouldn't want to use it.

 

[Crothian]

Wouldn't a rogue that had attacked, then moved away from his opponent suffer an AoO from that opponent? After all, he's moving out of a threatened area, and moving is NOT the only thing he's done that round (as his bloody rapier can attest).

IOW, why would the rogue care if his MEA is taken away? He wouldn't want to use it.

Only if the creature hadn't used his AoO that round. I've had parties where the fighter provokes an AoO, so that other people can safely leave combat later in the round. Or , the rogue could have feats like Mobility and spring attack that allow him to leave combat more safely. There are always a lot of little factors that may or may not be applied to this types of situations.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

Nails: Yeah, you can compensate for anything as the DM -- however, that gets into the territory of house-ruling a special ability whose use you later negate.

Even with circumstance modifiers, you're going to have to get pretty hefty to even approach a Rogue who has been investing in Bluff. Alternately, you can just start giving NPCs a lot of ranks in Sense Motive -- but that brings up a whole slew of problems with versimilitude, playing against the players, yadda yadda...

Crothian: Regarding staying out of harm's way, again, I'll point out that feinting can be used with ranged attacks, at least as written. IMO that beats tumbling in and out, or even using Spring Attack, any day. (Some creatures will have Combat Reflexes, etc...)

Give the feat a -2 penalty to the corresponding attack roll, or even a -4 penalty to the Bluff check (or even a choice between the two!), and I'd stop complaining