would a paladin hate a cleric of wee jas? vice-versa?

[Bad Paper]

We're toying with the setup of PCs in a new group, trying to Pay Attention To Alignment and all that.
Setup: one paladin, one cleric of Wee Jas (or similar), four others (balanced, class-wise)

Would a paladin be really bothered by a lawful neutral cleric that rebuked undead?

I can see how this would be a fun little sticking point for role-playing, but is there anyone here who would take Serious Issue with this, nerfing or prohibiting it in your campaign? Is the paladin going to be OK with the cleric animating corpses to throw at their enemies? Is the cleric going to be upset when the paladin repels the BBEG's undead minions ("I could have used those!")? I naturally imagine the paladin being more upset with the situation than the cleric, but maybe that's classist.

Can there be a paladin of Wee Jas? I don't mean a non-LG paladin, either. What would Wee Jas demand of her paladins?

Also, is this a rules question? Is there a better forum for this?

 

[Felix]

If the cleric rebuked undead the paladin should have nothing to do with him. He channels negative energy by his choice, which is an Evil act. Granted, the paladin wouldn't know that he shouldn't associate with him until he had proof that the cleric rebuked instead of turned.

Paladins would have a hard time following Wee Jas because she doesn't care if her followers are evil, as long as they follow the Law. Paladins cannot associate with Evil people, to the loss of their powers. Paladins are restricted to LG, yes. But as the class is set up, they are bound more tightly to Good than to the Law. WJ's evil clerics would confound her own paladins.

That said, there's nothing preventing WJ from having paladins. They just couldn't work with her evil worshippers and priests. Which could be awkward.

A very easy House Rule to solve this problem and bring Paladins into the WJ fold a little easier would be to change the Paladin's ability to Detect Chaos, disallow them from associating with Chaotic people, have them lose their paladinhood if they ever commit a Chaotic act, and have them Smite Chaos. It's virtually identical and makes role-playing a heck of a lot easier, since Paladins won't have to go around smiting their own clerics. Otherwise keep all the restrictions the same... LG, vows, Horsey, etc, etc.

 

[Bront]

It realy depends on the dispotion of the Paladin, the Cleric, and the GM. Some GMs are stricter on a Paladin's code than others, but generaly Paladins aren't friendly with undead.

So, if the Cleric is a bit more evil leaning, or perhaps liberal with commanding and then using them for evil purposes, the Paladin would probably dislike it.

If he's more likely to simply use the rebuke to disarm, disable, or otherwise manipulate them in a somewhat non-evil manor, and was somewhat good leaning, perhaps the Paladin could tolerate him.

Honestly, my leaning would be towards no, but it realy depends on the characters and the GM.

 

[Bront]

A very easy House Rule to solve this problem and bring Paladins into the WJ fold a little easier would be to change the Paladin's ability to Detect Chaos, disallow them from associating with Chaotic people, have them lose their paladinhood if they ever commit a Chaotic act, and have them Smite Chaos. It's virtually identical and makes role-playing a heck of a lot easier, since Paladins won't have to go around smiting their own clerics. Otherwise keep all the restrictions the same... LG, vows, Horsey, etc, etc.

Look at the alternate UA paladins (www.d20srd.org I think has them as well), they are a good guide for that, but those 4 classes are built more on the axis of evil vs good than law vs chaos.

 

[RedShirtNo5]

I had a similar situation; I'm playing a LG cleric of Wee Jas. I gave significant thought to what the church structure might be. Working just with the core rules, it was fairly difficult to see how any LG follower of Wee Jas could operate, given the spells in the Death domain.

One explanation is that any particular temple of Wee Jas would be belong to one of two sects: a LG/LN group and a LN/LE group. The LG/LN sect might believe either that Wee Jas as goddess of death is actually opposed to the existence of undead (particularly intelligent undead) as an attempt to avoid her domain. LEs could actually work with such a group, as long as they abide by the requirements of the local temple and avoid any paladins.

The LN/LE sect wouldn't have restrictions on creation of undead.

In our game, we used some house rules. IIRC, any spells that created intelligent undead were swapped out of the Death domain, and unintelligent undead were neutral and not powered by negative energy. The "official policy" of Wee Jas was that unintelligent undead were tools that could be created. Intelligent undead could not be created, but could be "captured". Basically, if a good cleric ever encountered an intelligent undead that was not controlled by another cleric of Wee Jas, the good clerics was permitted to destroy it.

-RedShirt

 

[Warehouse23]

I can imagine a LG paladin in the Wee Jas organization defending the world from the evils of magic misued.

As for your party, there's a world of difference between rebuking undead, commanding undead, and bolstering undead. Although I believe challening negative energy (rebuking undead) is "by definition" and Evil (descriptor) act (I'd like to see a page number, though), I can see a Good aligned character permitting it to accomplish a greater good. If the cleric starts bolstering the undead, that's another story altogether. D&D's moral space is not very good at creating "dark heroes" by the rules. A little DM latitude, though, can smooth over the rough places and allow for some good RP.

 

[FEADIN]

TURN OR REBUKE UNDEAD
Good clerics and paladins and some neutral clerics can channel positive energy, which can halt, drive off (rout), or destroy undead.
Evil clerics and some neutral clerics can channel negative energy, which can halt, awe (rebuke), control (command), or bolster undead.
Neutral Clerics and Undead
A cleric of neutral alignment can either turn undead but not rebuke them, or rebuke undead but not turn them. See Turn or Rebuke Undead for more information.
Even if a cleric is neutral, channeling positive energy is a good act and channeling negative energy is evil

 

[hazmat]

I thought that clerics of Wee Jas had to channel positive energy and that Wee Jas disliked undead.

As for the paladin question: They should be upset with any compatriot that commits evil acts. Persistent evil acts should make the paladin question his association with the party member that committed the act.

 

[Bad Paper]

I thought that clerics of Wee Jas had to channel positive energy and that Wee Jas disliked undead.

No. Exactly the opposite. Lawful-Neutral clerics (of WJ) are required to channel negative energy. And this kinda sinks RedShirtNo5's idea of two sects.

The Living Greyhawk stuff seems to indicate that Wee Jas never has LG worshippers. So that's right out. Oddly, in Greyhawk Wee Jas does not have the Death domain. WTF? Also, clerics of WJ need direct permission before dallying with chaotic undead or dead.

So maybe the cleric of WJ won't work. The best way to get these two in the same party is to have the Paladin worship St. Cuthbert, perhaps? They could work out a deal where the paladin gets to turn or destroy chaotic undead, and the cleric gets to keep the lawful undead. Cute.

 

[billd91]

No. Exactly the opposite. Lawful-Neutral clerics (of WJ) are required to channel negative energy. And this kinda sinks RedShirtNo5's idea of two sects.

The Living Greyhawk stuff seems to indicate that Wee Jas never has LG worshippers. So that's right out. Oddly, in Greyhawk Wee Jas does not have the Death domain. WTF? Also, clerics of WJ need direct permission before dallying with chaotic undead or dead.

So maybe the cleric of WJ won't work. The best way to get these two in the same party is to have the Paladin worship St. Cuthbert, perhaps? They could work out a deal where the paladin gets to turn or destroy chaotic undead, and the cleric gets to keep the lawful undead. Cute.

Allow me to point out that this document linked above is Wee Jas as the Living Greyhawk campaign sees her. You are free to put your own spin on it. That said, this is the first document on the deities that has made such revisions to the goddess and her powers. Previous years have her with the Death domain and no restriction on whether you can channel positive or negative, assuming your cleric was LN.
That said, if put into context, Wee Jas is a johnny-come-lately kind of death goddess, only taking on that portfolio after the Rain of Colorless Fire. So that could easily explain why the Death domain is not part of the package. She's more of a magic goddess anyway. I'd play up that aspect of it.